"Clutch Doesnt Exist"

[Stu]

Re: "Clutch Doesnt Exist"

the thing that was great about Mays catch was that it was in the Polo Grounds, which had more CF ground to cover than any field i've ever heard of. Of course, I've never seen the Polo Grounds, but from everything I've heard CF was huge.

Correct, as you can see from the dimensions in this picture. Mays had to go a long way to make that catch.

[GBrushTWood]

Re: "Clutch Doesnt Exist"

If it can't be measured, it doesn't exist. Just like "heart" and "grit" and "chemistry".

I'm not sure whether you are posting this in jest, or not, but anybody who believes your statement to be true, quite frankly doesn't know what he is talking about.

The man who ultimately BEGAN the whole notion of clutch hitting not existing, Bill James, has stated numerous times in the last 2-3 years that anybody who watches David Ortiz hit and still believes clutch doesn't exist is a buffoon.

Once again, the absense of evidence of clutch hitting existing does NOT mean it doesn't exist. It just means nobody has been able to prove it definitively yet.
I love stats a ton, but simply relying on them while rejecting more visceral, subjective predated methods, such as scouting, is folly. The key is to balance both empirical and subjective analysis when evaluating players. Any successful person would tell you that. Anybody who argues for one side or the other in a partisan manner is simply a clown masquerading as somebody with knowledge.

[skitch]

Re: "Clutch Doesnt Exist"

Of course cluth exists. It can't be measured, but can't be dismissed, either. I define clutch as coming through in pressure situations. Whether that pressure situation is in the 5th inning or the bottom of the 9th, I find that to be irrelevant. Some players are able to come through in these situations, where others fold and crumble under the pressure. After playing baseball for so long, I know for a fact that it's a lot harder to come through when you start thinking about the pressure around you and what's at hand, but the clutch players are the ones that can put it all aside and get the job done. I firmly believe cluth exists, it's just not something that can be measured by a number like nearly everything else in basebal.

[X*Cell]

Re: "Clutch Doesnt Exist"

Of course cluth exists. It can't be measured, but can't be dismissed, either. I define clutch as coming through in pressure situations. Whether that pressure situation is in the 5th inning or the bottom of the 9th, I find that to be irrelevant. Some players are able to come through in these situations, where others fold and crumble under the pressure. After playing baseball for so long, I know for a fact that it's a lot harder to come through when you start thinking about the pressure around you and what's at hand, but the clutch players are the ones that can put it all aside and get the job done. I firmly believe cluth exists, it's just not something that can be measured by a number like nearly everything else in basebal.

I would say in defense to this, its almost that facial expression you see on a player... I have seen a player in my baseball leagues line out in the clutch situation, but doesn't dismiss him as being un-clutch. He was poised at the plate, and the hit was nice strong hit... what you would call a great hit, only if it got passed the fielder rather than go right to the fielder. Measuring someone with clutch abilities then, can not be measured with stats. The only thing we could do to find out who has the poise in clutch situations and seems unaffected by the pressure, is to find some kind of brain device that can go into the minds of of ballplayers, and see who gets nervous or not.

[Stu]

Re: "Clutch Doesnt Exist"

Again, you can't compare any of our experiences playing baseball to the major leagues. While I agree the mental aspects still exist at the major league level, I think the gap between those who handle the situation well and those who don't is much smaller than our experiences.

[Scottdau]

Re: "Clutch Doesnt Exist"

Clutch exists how else do you explain A-Rod who's the king of the hollow stats. Yeah by season's end the guy looks like one of the best hitters in all of baseball and he is but when the chips are down the guy folds up like a cheap suitcase!

Being "clutch" is not just about success as I personally think some of the greatest clutch hitters struck out/made an out almost as often as they came through but it's a feeling. The clutch ballplayer will go in there with guns a'blazin and ready to take on the world.

Then you have pitchers who can look like superman on the mound in big games but at other times become mortal. Just look at Mike Scott in '86, some say he cheated but he was the most feared pitcher in all of baseball that year. If the Astros had won Game 6 then the Astros would've been the NL representative in the World Series.

Sadly you have your disappointments like Ankiel who I thought may have been left out there too long as he completely lost it right in front of our eyes.

Yes, you are so right! Clutch does exist. Sure its not like other sports. Hell you bat 3 out of 10 and you are a great hitter. So when there are runners on and the game on the line, some players raise above the rest and become clutch. Especially back in the 80's there were a lot of clutch hitters. And you are so right about the A Rod!

[1hotballa]

Re: "Clutch Doesnt Exist"

Nobody said clutch does not exsist. Clutch players on the other hand dont exsist. Here is a example.....

3 years splits (2003-2005) in close/late situations

Player A: .249/.352/.392 744 OPS

Player B: .276/.392/.553 945 OPS


I will say that player A is known to be one of the best clutch hitters of all time while player B is known to be one of the biggest chokers of all time. There is a 200 point difference in those 2 guys OPS, now you will ask, but if that one guys is proven to be a better but is called a choker while the other gets praised, how does that happen? The media. The media looks for people that they can embrace and when the put this person on such a high pedistal, it makes other players look bad. And when ESPN shows this, the fans see it and it is drilled in the their heads. This is ALL media driven and people REFUSE to look at the facts. It is a shame. BTW, player A is "CPT Clutch himself" Derek Jeter, and player B is the "biggest choker of all time" Alex Rodriguez. Can sombody please tell me how Arod has 200 OPS points on Jeter but is considered a garbage clutch player while Jeter is considered a clutch god? Also, can sombody explain to me how Alex Rodriguez is second in ALL of baseball only behind Albert Pujols in RBI's that either tied the game for his team or gave his team the lead? I didnt think so. Ill say it again, yes there are clutch situations, yes there are clutch hits, but there is no such thing as clutch players.


Here is a good article, with FACTS. If sombody wants to debunk it, please show your research. http://www.baseballprospectus.com/ar...articleid=2656

[DrJones]

Re: "Clutch Doesnt Exist"

Can sombody please tell me how Arod has 200 OPS points on Jeter but is considered a garbage clutch player while Jeter is considered a clutch god?

Because we're all subjected to Tim McCarver's disturbing man-crush on Jeter every October?

[1hotballa]

Re: "Clutch Doesnt Exist"

Because we're all subjected to Tim McCarver's disturbing man-crush on Jeter every October?

Thats part of it.... lol

[Scottdau]

Re: "Clutch Doesnt Exist"

Thats part of it.... lol

BS, because when the game is on the line Jeter steps up and A Rod chokes! That is why clutch players exist! It is what they do in the play offs and ways they bring their team back. Certain players raise to the occasion, does that make them better then the other guys in my book yes! But that doesn't mean the other guy is a terrible player he might have better numbers during the year! That is why I would take Tino Martinez over A Rod in the playoff anytime!

[Blzer]

Re: "Clutch Doesnt Exist"

BS, because when the game is on the line Jeter steps up and A Rod chokes! That is why clutch players exist! It is what they do in the play offs and ways they bring their team back.

Well, if by "stepping up to the plate" you mean a lifetime postseason average of .307 and OBP of .378 (meaning he still fails to reach base 62% of the time).

I mean... it's one thing to say that somebody "came through in the clutch"... but exactly what does it mean to call somebody a clutch player, especially somebody like Jeter? Because he hits .307 in the playoffs? I'd say maybe .707 would be more like it, if there were such thing as "clutch" players.

Believe me, Jeter comes through in the clutch a lot. But, he also doesn't come through in the clutch a lot. We don't ever look at the percentages or the opportunities... we always look at the successes. We look at home runs, RBI's, stolen bases, etc., but what good are these statistics without the attempts? Or without the AVG w/ R.I.S.P.? Or the HR/AB, or HR/K? Is it fair to those people that are so much more consistent, yet they aren't recognized because the time isn't called for them as often?



I guess you can answer that one yourself.



Oh, and by the way... I hate A-Rod. I despise the player, and the businessman that he is. I don't know him as a person, so I can't comment on that. But let me just say that, as happy as I was for his 0 for 4 today with 4 strikeouts, he isn't SUCH a choke-artist in the playoffs like you think. He bats .305 with a .401 OBP.

[BGarrett7]

Re: "Clutch Doesnt Exist"

Well, if by "stepping up to the plate" you mean a lifetime postseason average of .307 and OBP of .378 (meaning he still fails to reach base 62% of the time).

...

He bats .305 with a .401 OBP.

Keep in mind that just because an AB is one during the playoffs doesn't mean that it is a crucial or even relevent one. Take the '04 ALCS, for example. Would you say that an AB by a Yankee after the fifth inning in Game 3 is as equally important as one in Games 4, 5 or 6?

[Blzer]

Re: "Clutch Doesnt Exist"

Keep in mind that just because an AB is one during the playoffs doesn't mean that it is a crucial or even relevent one. Take the '04 ALCS, for example. Would you say that an AB by a Yankee after the fifth inning in Game 3 is as equally important as one in Games 4, 5 or 6?

Well, that's true in a sense... but isn't every at bat crucial? Just because there's not a runner in scoring position, or just because it's not the 7th plus inning... how does that at bat differ from any other? People think that the late at bats are what matter most, but what if a single in the second inning led to a Posada double that knocks him in later, and the game ends up going in the 11th where there's a walkoff home run by Giambi? Would have this happened without Posada's double, which was from Rodriguez's single?


I mean, the reason why the playoffs are always a much better atmosphere is because the players, fans, and coaches take every pitch and call seriously. We all know this.


One isn't a "choke" artist by not always coming through in the clutch, because Jeter doesn't either. Like I said... they only see the amount of times that he's come through in the clutch, as opposed to the percentage of times that he actually does (though that may be very high also). But, every at bat is independent from one another. Just because he gets a hit in one at bat in a specific situation doesn't mean he will/won't get a hit in that next at bat in that same situation. This is one reason why clutch CANNOT be measured. We can call a situation "clutch-worthy", and we can see whether or not he comes through. If so... GREAT! He can do it 100 times out of 100. Is he clutch? No. He may then go 0 for his next 400 in that situation. Now is he not clutch? No.

You can't look at everything as a whole; you just have to look at them one-by-one. HOWEVER, one can say that some people perform consistently similar to how they do on a regular basis based as opposed to those that choke and try to "do too much", and fail in those situations.

[X*Cell]

Re: "Clutch Doesnt Exist"

Well, that's true in a sense... but isn't every at bat crucial? Just because there's not a runner in scoring position, or just because it's not the 7th plus inning... how does that at bat differ from any other? People think that the late at bats are what matter most, but what if a single in the second inning led to a Posada double that knocks him in later, and the game ends up going in the 11th where there's a walkoff home run by Giambi? Would have this happened without Posada's double, which was from Rodriguez's single?

That's what I'd say, but then statistics point to game-winning runs / hits generally being accomplished in the later innings of the game (obviously).

[Blzer]

Re: "Clutch Doesnt Exist"

That's what I'd say, but then statistics point to game-winning runs / hits generally being accomplished in the later innings of the game (obviously).

Of course, but I always look back at things that people write off, especially early in a ball game.


I don't want to beat a dead horse, but this whole Steve Bartman situation. Why can't you blame him? Well, first and foremost it wasn't interference anyway (Jeffrey Maier, on the other hand, WAS interference), but it's because the Cubs didn't have a big enough lead. Sorry, Cubbies... didn't do your job early enough. Blame the players that got out because they didn't run to first hard enough, or blame the umpire for that called strike two on the outside corner that changed the at bat for the hitter to have to look offspeed, therefore not getting that home run, and flying out instead. Don't blame Bartman. Each pitch counts in a game.

Now, that's in terms of "early" and "late". Well, then there's "clutch". Now one may ask how clutch situations come up? Well, it's normally with people getting on base before them. And, if they don't get on base... then there's no CHANCE for that clutch situation.


This is why I really don't think that the Runs stat is overrated. You get on, and you do what you can to score (though, of course, it's dependent upon how your other players get you in, hence being "clutch").




I forget what my point was in this post.



Edited: Oh yeah... the playoffs call for a "clutch" spot at any time in the ballgame, be it early or late in the game. You may not be able to see how key it is early on, but it does not make it any less important. Therefore, A-Rod's AVG and OBP statistics are nothing short of what Jeter's are overall... making him not a choke artist in the playoffs by overall standards (and I'm not talking about clutch situations; because first of all, that is a subjective call as to what is a clutch situation). Remember, don't expect me to defend A-Rod all of the time. He is atop my most hated players (with Pujols and Sosa... don't ask why, but these three are elite for SOME reason).