"Clutch Doesnt Exist"

[ILLCHILL]

Re: "Clutch Doesnt Exist"

I know this is a baseball forum, but since this thread is on clutchness itself, what do you guys think about Tom Brady?

[GBrushTWood]

Re: "Clutch Doesnt Exist"

Well, that's true in a sense... but isn't every at bat crucial? Just because there's not a runner in scoring position, or just because it's not the 7th plus inning... how does that at bat differ from any other?

Because it's not nut crunching time. If you watch baseball, you *know* when a big situation is coming up, and the team needs a player to come through in order to win the game. There is no simply way to empirically categorize this (that I know of, or that is public), such as "down 4 runs, bases loaded, 1 out". It is simply impossible. You just know by watching the game that it is time to sack up, and that's it.

You can't look at everything as a whole; you just have to look at them one-by-one. HOWEVER, one can say that some people perform consistently similar to how they do on a regular basis based as opposed to those that choke and try to "do too much", and fail in those situations.

I'd say this is fairly on the mark. If anybody has the DVD's or tapes of the 2004 ALCS, go watch the bottom of the 8th inning of Game 6. Check out Alex Rodriguez' at bat, and pay close attention to him (yes, this is the slap at bat). Arroyo is essentially throwing him soft junk the entire AB, while Rodriguez barely manages to make any contact with the baseball. In Game 3 of the series, he absolutely mashed the salad Arroyo was tossing up there (while ahead in the series), yet a mere 3-4 days later, in a gigantic pressured situation vs. the same pitcher, Rodriguez looks no better than Rey Ordonez at the plate.

You can also look at Rodriguez' face and literally see the terror in his demeanor. It's pretty sad to be honest, and if anybody ever argues against the "un-clutch" player, I'd tell them to watch that AB to prove otherwise. This is because one of the greatest players of all time in non-pressured situations clearly turns into mush when faced with a clutch situation. Derek Jeter wouldn't completely lose his mind like that. Also David Ortiz.

[Blzer]

Re: "Clutch Doesnt Exist"

I know this is a baseball forum, but since this thread is on clutchness itself, what do you guys think about Tom Brady?

He's in the same boat... doesn't fall under pressure. As long as he has a good O-Line with him, he sees the score as 0 - 0 throughout the entire game, regardless of the score. He stays along the same pattern throughout the whole game, and won't get too greedy for extra yardage when things aren't falling through.

This is the same thing in baseball. When you're in a 0-for-19 slump, you become too greedy and do things such as: 1) Overswinging; 2) Swinging at pitches you normally wouldn't swing at; 3) Try to pull the ball; 4) Think about that "ofer" during every pitch of every at bat. You try so hard to succeed that you'll only fail. Sometimes, you just have to understand that a few hits just didn't go your way, and you have to go the same approach as you've had the whole season, with your .293 average, etc. The thing about sports, especially baseball, is that you have to accept failure. In basketball, a great shooter will make a little over 50% of his shots... that means failing a little less than 50%. Well, in baseball, a great player hits successfully a little over 30% of the time. That's all? Yes, that's all. Baseball is about patience, because you have 162 games to go through whatever phases you need to try.

Of course, for rookies it's harder, because not only are they fighting for playing time, but they're fighting to stay up in the major league level. So, sometimes, they'll overdo it. And from first-hand experience (and from what I've just plain heard first-hand from a lot of professional athletes), you have to stay in that 85% - 90% groove with everything, and you can't become frustrated.





When quarterbacks get picked, it's usually not the receiver's fault, and a lot of times is not the defensiveman's skill to "pick". A lot of times, the quarterback throws it off-target, whether you can notice it or not. If somebody throws 3 - 4 picks a game, it's because of frustration. They are eager to get rid of the ball, and don't always find an open man, etc.




Brady deserved MVP when he got it. He comes through in the clutch, along with the rest of his team. Is he clutch? No. He's failed numerous times, and he was lucky with the tuck rule call. But, is he able to handle pressure well? I say that, with a good O-Line, he does know how to compose himself AND his team.

[SPTO]

Re: "Clutch Doesnt Exist"

I know this is a baseball forum, but since this thread is on clutchness itself, what do you guys think about Tom Brady?

I'd say he's VERY good but not quite on the level of an Elway or Marino. I don't think he's actually led the final drive to the endzone but rather getting the Pats close enough for a field goal.

He needs to show more of a fire in his belly in those situations IMO but he's pretty darn good.

[DrJones]

Re: "Clutch Doesnt Exist"

I'd say he's VERY good but not quite on the level of an Elway or Marino. I don't think he's actually led the final drive to the endzone but rather getting the Pats close enough for a field goal.

He needs to show more of a fire in his belly in those situations IMO but he's pretty darn good.

Dan Marino is considered to be a "clutch" QB?

[DrJones]

Re: "Clutch Doesnt Exist"

I'd say this is fairly on the mark. If anybody has the DVD's or tapes of the 2004 ALCS, go watch the bottom of the 8th inning of Game 6. Check out Alex Rodriguez' at bat, and pay close attention to him (yes, this is the slap at bat). Arroyo is essentially throwing him soft junk the entire AB, while Rodriguez barely manages to make any contact with the baseball. In Game 3 of the series, he absolutely mashed the salad Arroyo was tossing up there (while ahead in the series), yet a mere 3-4 days later, in a gigantic pressured situation vs. the same pitcher, Rodriguez looks no better than Rey Ordonez at the plate.

You can also look at Rodriguez' face and literally see the terror in his demeanor. It's pretty sad to be honest, and if anybody ever argues against the "un-clutch" player, I'd tell them to watch that AB to prove otherwise. This is because one of the greatest players of all time in non-pressured situations clearly turns into mush when faced with a clutch situation. Derek Jeter wouldn't completely lose his mind like that. Also David Ortiz.

The 2004 ALCS is a bad example, though, isn't it? Jeter was rather "un-clutch" himself, batting .200 and slugging .233 -- since he's the Yankee captain and widely hailed as a great leader and a pre-eminent "clutch" player, shouldn't he receive his fair share of criticism for coming up small during the biggest choke job in the history of postseason baseball?

[X*Cell]

Re: "Clutch Doesnt Exist"

I'd say he's VERY good but not quite on the level of an Elway or Marino. I don't think he's actually led the final drive to the endzone but rather getting the Pats close enough for a field goal.

He needs to show more of a fire in his belly in those situations IMO but he's pretty darn good.

Some of those fieldgoal kickers... man o man!

Those guys have to be clutch more often than anyone else on the field... and guys like Adam Vinateiri.... all I can say is Wow!!!

He... is the best clutch player in the NFL... hands down.

[GBrushTWood]

Re: "Clutch Doesnt Exist"

The 2004 ALCS is a bad example, though, isn't it? Jeter was rather "un-clutch" himself, batting .200 and slugging .233 -- since he's the Yankee captain and widely hailed as a great leader and a pre-eminent "clutch" player, shouldn't he receive his fair share of criticism for coming up small during the biggest choke job in the history of postseason baseball?

Yep, you are right. He should, but he won't, because people will always remember the slap play by Rodriguez as symbolic of the collapse. I think one thing everybody can agree on is that a lot of the time, perception is easier for people to accept than reality. This is a normal function of the brain.
Of course, Jeter also had a rope single right before Rodriguez in that inning that drove in a run, but aside from that, Jeter didn't do much in Games 5, 6, and 7.

[Blzer]

Re: "Clutch Doesnt Exist"

The 2004 ALCS is a bad example, though, isn't it? Jeter was rather "un-clutch" himself, batting .200 and slugging .233 ...

What are you saying? That clutch players are allowed to be "unclutchy" at times?

Then that doesn't really make them clutch, does it?



There's no such thing as a clutch player.

[SPTO]

Re: "Clutch Doesnt Exist"

Dan Marino is considered to be a "clutch" QB?

Look at the number of 4th quarter comebacks Marino led the Dolphins to. I think he's 2nd or 3rd all time.

[Blzer]

Re: "Clutch Doesnt Exist"

Look at the number of 4th quarter comebacks Marino led the Dolphins to. I think he's 2nd or 3rd all time.

See, this is what I'm talking about.

Not that you're wrong with what you're saying, but this is what I mean by people (and I mean everybody, including analysts) looking at the number of successes, as opposed to the percentage of success. Sure, he's 2nd or 3rd all-time in 4th quarter comebacks. But what if his percentage is at the low end?

Pete Rose has the most hits of all time. Is he the best successful hitter ever? I'd probably look at somebody like Ty Cobb or Ted Williams, because I believe that batting average is a bigger thing to look at. Rose has the most hits WITH the most at bats. And perhaps Marino, with all of his games played, had so many opportunities to come back in games.



I'm not raining on Marino's parade, as he is one of my favorite quarterbacks of all time. But I was making the reference to how many times Jeter has "come through in the clutch". I mean, sure he has... but at the same time he has failed just as often as others. BUT, because he's come through so many times, that's all they have to look at to say that he is considered "clutch", and I find that wrong (well, on two occasions... the other being I don't believe in "clutch players").

[DrJones]

Re: "Clutch Doesnt Exist"

What are you saying? That clutch players are allowed to be "unclutchy" at times?

Then that doesn't really make them clutch, does it?



There's no such thing as a clutch player.

I was just noting how certain segments of the sports media ignore evidence that doesn't reinforce their own preconceived views. When the Yankees win, it's due to Jeter's leadership. When they lose, it's because A-Rod isn't carrying the load.

Another example: Mark Messier was given the title of "greatest leader in sports" by the New York media after leading the Rangers to the 1994 Cup, but his leadership was never questioned by the media during his disastrous 3 seasons with the Canucks and his second stint in the Big Apple. If you're the "greatest leader in sports", how do you fail to make the playoffs for 7 consecutive years?

[SPTO]

Re: "Clutch Doesnt Exist"

Another example: Mark Messier was given the title of "greatest leader in sports" by the New York media after leading the Rangers to the 1994 Cup, but his leadership was never questioned by the media during his disastrous 3 seasons with the Canucks and his second stint in the Big Apple. If you're the "greatest leader in sports", how do you fail to make the playoffs for 7 consecutive years?

On the flip side tho how does the greatest player of all time (Gretszky) only go to a Finals once after he left Edmonton? Yet the man is revered as the greatest ever and supplanting Gordie Howe as the visage of hockey.

Oh well.

[DrJones]

Re: "Clutch Doesnt Exist"

Look at the number of 4th quarter comebacks Marino led the Dolphins to. I think he's 2nd or 3rd all time.

The 4th quarter comeback stat doesn't mean much to me without context.

The QB's with the most 4th quarter comebacks during the last 10 years: Jake Plummer and Peyton Manning.

[DrJones]

Re: "Clutch Doesnt Exist"

On the flip side tho how does the greatest player of all time (Gretszky) only go to a Finals once after he left Edmonton? Yet the man is revered as the greatest ever and supplanting Gordie Howe as the visage of hockey.

Oh well.

Because Gretzky's skills as a player deteriorated during the 2nd half of his career. If you define "best" as statistical dominance, it's tough to knock his career. But, according to sports cliches, great leaders make their teammates better. If that's the case, I'd hate to see how bad the Canucks and Rangers would've been without Messier.