Mariners Meet With Zito

[dalnet22]

Re: Mariners Meet With Zito

Agreed, I'm praying the M's don't sign Zito. What a waste of money for an above average pitcher who is likely going to significantly deteriorate over the length of a 6 or 7 year contract.

I'd much rather they sign Jeff Suppan for less years and less money. He's a much better value than Zito.

Yeah, at least Suppan has been consistently medicore. It's odd to see a certain group of pitchers who never seem to get hurt, while all these flashy young gunners fade so fast.

[Sedihawk2K5]

Re: Mariners Meet With Zito

Agreed, I'm praying the M's don't sign Zito. What a waste of money for an above average pitcher who is likely going to significantly deteriorate over the length of a 6 or 7 year contract.

I'd much rather they sign Jeff Suppan for less years and less money. He's a much better value than Zito.

I don't think the M's will get Zito in the end, and even though there are "sources" saying they are serious, well, who knows what that really means. He's a perfect fit in NYC. And, I actually think he'd do better in the NL, without a DH and pitching half his starts in Shea. He might shave a run off his ERA and give his usual 200+ IP.

But, I heard Jayson Stark say one alarming thing on Zito, and that is this - he struck out ONE hitter out of 52 he faced in the playoffs. That's an ace? Now he's never been a huge strikeout guy, but that's not a guy that's missing a lot of bats, and the sabermetric geeks are quick to point out that Zito is just nothing extraordinary but he's very healthy and gives you innings.

And I agree on Suppan, I'd rather have him at $11 per year for the next 4 years vs. going $4 million more per year and 2-3 more years on Zito! Amazing, to think that Suppan at $11 million per year actually seems like a bargain, but when you look at what Lilly and Meche got? It seems about right.

[WazzuRC]

Re: Mariners Meet With Zito

You guys are saying that you'd rather have Suppan than Zito? You want YET ANOTHER #4 starter?! You kidding me? I'm not saying the M's need to sign Zito, but if they sign Suppan I'll probably stick my head through a glass window.

[Sedihawk2K5]

Re: Mariners Meet With Zito

You guys are saying that you'd rather have Suppan than Zito? You want YET ANOTHER #4 starter?! You kidding me? I'm not saying the M's need to sign Zito, but if they sign Suppan I'll probably stick my head through a glass window.

MMmm, well, not exactly, at least I'm not saying they should sign Suppan or any other #4 starters for that matter. But if the choice was between Suppan at $11 million for 4 years or Zito at $16 million for 6? I'd rather have Suppan. But we can probably not even worry about it, because deep down don't we know that Suppan and Zito will sign elsewhere anyway?

Here's the thing though - is having a bunch of mid-level starters a bad thing? What do Marquis, Suppan and Weaver all have in common? Oh yeah, they have WS rings from 2006! They proved that you can have one outstanding starting pitcher in Carpenter, and then a bunch of mid-level guys, win an average division with a win total in the low-80's, and still win a ring. You don't need a bunch of aces.

Off-topic - how about those Cougs Dookie? 11-1 after last night!

[Coug00]

Re: Mariners Meet With Zito

MMmm, well, not exactly, at least I'm not saying they should sign Suppan or any other #4 starters for that matter. But if the choice was between Suppan at $11 million for 4 years or Zito at $16 million for 6? I'd rather have Suppan. But we can probably not even worry about it, because deep down don't we know that Suppan and Zito will sign elsewhere anyway?

Here's the thing though - is having a bunch of mid-level starters a bad thing? What do Marquis, Suppan and Weaver all have in common? Oh yeah, they have WS rings from 2006! They proved that you can have one outstanding starting pitcher in Carpenter, and then a bunch of mid-level guys, win an average division with a win total in the low-80's, and still win a ring. You don't need a bunch of aces.

Off-topic - how about those Cougs Dookie? 11-1 after last night!

Exactly. When you're dealing with two mediocre pitchers you want the one who comes for less money and less years. The M's would be making a huge mistake signing a monster long term contract for Zito. What exactly does the guy do that is so spectacular he should earn #1 money? Zito is a #3 at best. That deal would handicap the M's payroll for years and years to come.

I hope the Rangers sign him. Can you imagine he and Millwood taking up over $25 million of their annual payroll in a couple years? That's a lot of money for aging crap.

Off-topic...that was great defense last night in the 2nd half. I love how somebody different steps up every night either through scoring, defense or hustle. SDSU is good, but the real test is next Thursday against UCLA. I'm seriously doubting either offense scores 60 points.

[Sedihawk2K5]

Re: Mariners Meet With Zito

Exactly. When you're dealing with two mediocre pitchers you want the one who comes for less money and less years. The M's would be making a huge mistake signing a monster long term contract for Zito. What exactly does the guy do that is so spectacular he should earn #1 money? Zito is a #3 at best. That deal would handicap the M's payroll for years and years to come.

I hope the Rangers sign him. Can you imagine he and Millwood taking up over $25 million of their annual payroll in a couple years? That's a lot of money for aging crap.

Off-topic...that was great defense last night in the 2nd half. I love how somebody different steps up every night either through scoring, defense or hustle. SDSU is good, but the real test is next Thursday against UCLA. I'm seriously doubting either offense scores 60 points.

The thing with Zito is he does win ballgames, and his ERA is respectible, but the sabergeeks all point out that he's not as good as he looks up close. I think he will do well in Shea, the NL in general and he could probably do pretty well with death valley in left-center in Seattle. What's odd is that Zito has great numbers at Texas, something crazy like 11-1, so who knows?!

Again, off-topic (and this will probably be moved) but yeah, the Cougs scrapped and clawed last night. The best thing is the 2nd half adjustments, from 10 points down to just methodically pulling away late. They are pretty deep too, deeper than a lot of people thought coming in to the season. They play strong defense, and while they may not have the most talented bunch of cats around, they will harass you for 40 minutes every night in that Bennett-style. I'm not going to over-analyze it though, I'm just going to enjoy it for what it is!

[WazzuRC]

Re: Mariners Meet With Zito

Here's the thing though - is having a bunch of mid-level starters a bad thing? What do Marquis, Suppan and Weaver all have in common? Oh yeah, they have WS rings from 2006! They proved that you can have one outstanding starting pitcher in Carpenter, and then a bunch of mid-level guys, win an average division with a win total in the low-80's, and still win a ring. You don't need a bunch of aces.

Yeah, but see this is where I disagree. Yeah, the Cards won the WS. But they also got incredibly hot towards the end of the year. Also, tell me when the M's get Pujols, Rolen, Eckstein, and Edmonds type players...


Off-topic: Kyle Weaver is the best Coug player I've seen since Issac Fontaine.

[RoyalBoyle78]

Re: Mariners Meet With Zito

Linkage

If the M's sign Zito, I'll take back everything I said about them.

A Pitching Rotation that looks like this:

Zito
Felix
Washburn
Batista
Ramirez

is good enough to win the west IMHO.

sorry bud, he's coming to the Mets....

[CoRruPt-]

Re: Mariners Meet With Zito

Yeah, but see this is where I disagree. Yeah, the Cards won the WS. But they also got incredibly hot towards the end of the year. Also, tell me when the M's get Pujols, Rolen, Eckstein, and Edmonds type players...


Off-topic: Kyle Weaver is the best Coug player I've seen since Issac Fontaine.

The Cards were incredibly hot towards the end of the year? Okay... they were struggling before the postseason started and damn nearly didn't even make the playoffs.

[dalnet22]

Re: Mariners Meet With Zito

The Cards were incredibly hot towards the end of the year? Okay... they were struggling before the postseason started and damn nearly didn't even make the playoffs.

A team of AAA'ers and two super stars can not get "hot." To put it plainly, the AL slumped in the playoffs. It's nothing more than a bad team getting very lucky at the right time. End of story.

[Stoud]

Re: Mariners Meet With Zito

Exactly. When you're dealing with two mediocre pitchers you want the one who comes for less money and less years. The M's would be making a huge mistake signing a monster long term contract for Zito. What exactly does the guy do that is so spectacular he should earn #1 money? Zito is a #3 at best. That deal would handicap the M's payroll for years and years to come.

I hope the Rangers sign him. Can you imagine he and Millwood taking up over $25 million of their annual payroll in a couple years? That's a lot of money for aging crap.

2 things:

1. What team exactly is Zito a #3 at best on? I think even the Yankees would put him at #2 or better.

2. When exactly did a 28 year old pitcher become aging crap? I could have sworn that for a pitcher to classify in that kind of area he had to be around 33-35 years old....that's 5 years away, or at the end of that "large contract" that you keep insisting the M's must be offering..

[dalnet22]

Re: Mariners Meet With Zito

2 things:

1. What team exactly is Zito a #3 at best on? I think even the Yankees would put him at #2 or better.

2. When exactly did a 28 year old pitcher become aging crap? I could have sworn that for a pitcher to classify in that kind of area he had to be around 33-35 years old....that's 5 years away, or at the end of that "large contract" that you keep insisting the M's must be offering..

Typically, at least in this millennium, pitchers who have fallen off the map have not rebounded into #1 or #2 starters. In fact, I'm trying to think of anyone who has come back from being a fallen star to a dominant ace. Barry Zito will follow in Tim Hudson and Mark Mulder's steps as a has been who will never be more than a #3.

Then again, it's quite possible he could pitch better in the NL. But, I don't think spending $65 million is worth a chance to see that hand. Of course, in the NL, Zito's 1.40 whip would be ace quality on most teams.

[Coug00]

Re: Mariners Meet With Zito

2 things:

1. What team exactly is Zito a #3 at best on? I think even the Yankees would put him at #2 or better.

2. When exactly did a 28 year old pitcher become aging crap? I could have sworn that for a pitcher to classify in that kind of area he had to be around 33-35 years old....that's 5 years away, or at the end of that "large contract" that you keep insisting the M's must be offering..

Don't be fooled by Zito's name recognition. He is not an ace by any means. His stats over the past few years are the definition of average. 2006 League Averages on the left, Zito's 2006 #'s on the right (credit lookoutlanding.com and hardballtimes.com)

ERA: 4.53 - 3.83
<B>FIP: 4.52 - 4.90</B>
<B>xFIP: 4.70 - 5.41</B>
K%: 17.0% - 15.9%
uBB%: 7.7% - 9.9%
HBP%: 1.0% - 1.3%
HR%: 2.9% - 2.9%
K/9: 6.58 - 6.14
uBB/9: 3.00 - 3.81
HR/9: 1.13 - 1.10
P/PA: 3.76 - 3.9
<B>DER: .695 - .719</B>
LD%: 19.6% - 16.5%
GB%: 43.6% - 38.2%
FB%: 36.8% - 45.3%
LOB%: 71.6% - 78.5%

Those numbers are not exactly what I would want out of my staff ace. Put Zito on just an average fielding team last year and his numbers drop considerably...down into the BAD range.

[dalnet22]

Re: Mariners Meet With Zito

This man speaks the truth. Good evidence, Coug00.

[nyisles16]

Re: Mariners Meet With Zito

I never said Zito would be better with a specific team. On the contrary, I'm arguing that Zito is washed up. The facts that A. he is the best FA available and B. teams are willing to spend $65 million tell you several things.

1. The league has too many teams. You're lucky to have one ace on a staff, let alone 5 average starters.

2. Individual players are making too much money.

3. Ace type pitchers are fading too quickly. Mike Marshall just might be right, after all.

The problem I have is not with the pitcher (because so many have followed Zito's path), it's with the league. Several teams need to be contracted if we're going to have any credibility in 5 years. It was bad enough the entire NL was full of AAA teams, but now they'll be getting paid much more than usual.

sorry - misread what you were trying to say..