Did Hall voter do the right thing?

[bkrich83]

Re: Did Hall voter do the right thing?

Hmm.. Not voting, because Gwynn and Ripken don't desrve to be unanimous. That makes sense. The self important BBWA never ceases to amaze.

To me, either you're Hall Worthy or you aren't. Don't see how Ripken and Gwynn of all people aren't Hall Worthy

[SPTO]

Re: Did Hall voter do the right thing?

I remember watching a replay of the '88 world series and it was brought up how a sports writer at the time found out that Canseco was doing roids. It became a major topic of discussion during the WS then was swept under the rug. it wasn't even investigated vigorously from what I can tell.

So while i'm not fully on Skerik side I do think that the mass conspiracy/turning their eyes away MO of MLB during the steroid era has credence.

[Hootiefish]

Re: Did Hall voter do the right thing?

It's more offensive to me that Ripken was piped fastballs for the last few years of his career because everyone was afraid of hitting him than it would be to learn he took steroids or whatever else the rest of baseball was taking at the time.

Bottom line on McGwire, Sosa and the rest of the so-called "cheaters" - baseball enabled these guys. MLB, straight up through the commissioner's office, knew what was going on and turned a blind eye to the game's problems to repopularize it. Now these guys have outgrown their usefulness and the game is back on the map among fans, Selig and company are throwing them under the bus to appease the fans who are asking for a crackdown.

I'm not going to fault McGwire, Sosa or anyone else for taking advantage of a culture that MLB enabled.

Amen. I said essentially the same thing in a thread I just made. You said it much more succintly than I was able to.

[MassNole]

Re: Did Hall voter do the right thing?

I remember watching a replay of the '88 world series and it was brought up how a sports writer at the time found out that Canseco was doing roids. It became a major topic of discussion during the WS then was swept under the rug. it wasn't even investigated vigorously from what I can tell.

So while i'm not fully on Skerik side I do think that the mass conspiracy/turning their eyes away MO of MLB during the steroid era has credence.

I remember in the aftermath of Lyle Alzado a lot of people were pointing fingers at MLB, I always wondered why nothing came of it. I am usually not big into conspiracy theories, but given the times I can readily believe MLB turned a blind eye to rebuild its image.

[caseyd]

Re: Did Hall voter do the right thing?

I'm afraid Murph will never make it in

The thing that I think is a serious joke is how he constantly gets less votes than guys like Conception and Garvey. Also, I've never seen someone more deified over one game than Jack Morris. The guy was not that great of a pitcher and he gets a lot of votes. It's all because of 1991 game 7. The funny thing is that had it not been for a boneheaded Lonnie Smith, Smoltz would have won that game 1-0, not Morris.

[Skerik]

Re: Did Hall voter do the right thing?

I remember in the aftermath of Lyle Alzado a lot of people were pointing fingers at MLB, I always wondered why nothing came of it. I am usually not big into conspiracy theories, but given the times I can readily believe MLB turned a blind eye to rebuild its image.

It's not really a conspiracy theory to say that MLB ignored the problem. It's obvious that the McGwire/Sosa HR chase put baseball back on the map following the '94 strike. It's also obvious that baseball didn't give a damn about the steroid problems back in those days. And it's just plain naive to think that Selig didn't have full knowledge of what was going on.

If you want to be mad at anyone, be mad at Selig for using performance enhancing drugs to tarnish the game's long term image for the short term windfall of increased fan interest following a damaging strike. Now we're reaping the whirlwind and by tossing guys like McGwire, Sosa and the lot up in front of Congress and under the bus, Selig's only insulating himself against the ire of the fans for what he did.

Those guys are credited with "saving" baseball, Selig used them, and he's done nothing but crap on them ever since. I won't say I feel sorry for them, but I'm sure not ready to vilify them either.

[SPTO]

Re: Did Hall voter do the right thing?

The thing that I think is a serious joke is how he constantly gets less votes than guys like Conception and Garvey. Also, I've never seen someone more deified over one game than Jack Morris. The guy was not that great of a pitcher and he gets a lot of votes. It's all because of 1991 game 7. The funny thing is that had it not been for a boneheaded Lonnie Smith, Smoltz would have won that game 1-0, not Morris.

Wait so having the most wins in the 1990s and being the ace on 3 DIFFERENT World Series teams doesn't make you at least a consideration for the HOF?

Morris was one of the most dominating pitchers of his era and he was the unquestioned leader of the staff whereever he pitched. (except Cleveland as that was the end of his career)

His ERA was high but the consistently pitched into the 8th inning then yeah you're bound to let up a few runs here and there. I think it's a damn shame that Morris isn't in the Hall.

[VanCitySportsGuy]

Re: Did Hall voter do the right thing?

Some of the voters are assclowns.

Jeff Blair from the Globe and Mail said he never voted for Gary Carter because he thought he was a jerk. He stated his decision had nothing to do with what he did on the field.

Right now, there's no chance in hell Bonds gets in on the first ballot despite being one of the 5 greatest players in MLB history.

[MassNole]

Re: Did Hall voter do the right thing?

This is not an attempt to add politics to anything, but some food for thought, how different would the world be if George W. Bush had been named Commissioner of Baseball? I wonder what he would've done for the game, IIRC he was a candidate at one time wasn't he, around the time Fay Vincent was either named or resigned, right?

[caseyd]

Re: Did Hall voter do the right thing?

Wait so having the most wins in the 1990s and being the ace on 3 DIFFERENT World Series teams doesn't make you at least a consideration for the HOF?

Morris was one of the most dominating pitchers of his era and he was the unquestioned leader of the staff whereever he pitched. (except Cleveland as that was the end of his career)

His ERA was high but the consistently pitched into the 8th inning then yeah you're bound to let up a few runs here and there. I think it's a damn shame that Morris isn't in the Hall.

No, I think he belongs in because he was the winningest pitcher of the 80s, not because of 1991 game 7. If you look at his stats, he wasn't that great of a postseason pitcher. I can name 5 guys off the top of my head, that aren't in the Hall, that were better postseason pitchers than him. His postseason era was 3.80. During a pitcher's era, that's not great. Take a couple of nice outings (1991 specifically) out and it's even worse. I respect the guy for his wins and he was a workhorse, but like it or not, most of his votes come from that game. There is no way that he deserves to beat Dale Murphy by 152 votes when one dominated hitting the way the other dominated pitching (again, in a pitcher's era). Again, I like Morris and think he deserves to be in, but the shaft that Murphy continues to get is ridiculous.

Take my opinions with a grain of salt. I get really bitter every year at this time. LOL

[SPTO]

Re: Did Hall voter do the right thing?

This is not an attempt to add politics to anything, but some food for thought, how different would the world be if George W. Bush had been named Commissioner of Baseball? I wonder what he would've done for the game, IIRC he was a candidate at one time wasn't he, around the time Fay Vincent was either named or resigned, right?

IIRC he was never a very serious candidate. He wasn't even all that influential an owner as he seemed to have been in the background most of the time. (he owned the Rangers)

Now if only Bob Costas was seriously given a shot I think the whole landscape of baseball would be totally different today.

[Gary Armida]

Re: Did Hall voter do the right thing?

I see what you're trying to get at, but come on. Gwynn and steroids just don't mix. Did you see the guy his last 10 years in the league? Unless he was sticking the needle into his belly, I'm just not seeing it.

I totally agree with you. I guess I am saying that there is so much uncertainty with this. I can't see Gwynn on steriods as well as Ripken for that matter. It's just how do the voters seperate the "good" from the "bad" from that time period, ya know?

I'm actually hoping this issue will allow guys from my generation (Jack Morris, Andre Dawson, Dale Murphy, Tommy John) to get in. Any guys from 78-91 really get screwed because of the lack of inflated numbers. Hopefully, the voters will look at these guys as "pure" players and give them their deserved place.

[SPTO]

Re: Did Hall voter do the right thing?

His postseason era was 3.80. During a pitcher's era, that's not great. Take a couple of nice outings (1991 specifically) out and it's even worse.

I think you're being a little harsh when it comes to Morris' postseason record.

1984 ALCS: 1-0 1.29 ERA

1984 WS 2-0 2.00 ERA

1987 ALCS 0-1 6.75 ERA (yep that was bad)

1991 ALCS 2-0 4.05 ERA (considering he was pitching against a high powered Toronto offense this isn't all that bad)

1991 WS 2-0 1.17 ERA(!)

It was the '92 playoffs that put his postseason record and ERA out of wack as he had a bad playoff all the way around.


As for Dale Murphy I agree the guy should be in the Hall. He did have a noticeable decline but looking at the numbers he still produced pretty good productive offensive numbers beside BA in those last few years.

[MassNole]

Re: Did Hall voter do the right thing?

IIRC he was never a very serious candidate. He wasn't even all that influential an owner as he seemed to have been in the background most of the time. (he owned the Rangers)

Now if only Bob Costas was seriously given a shot I think the whole landscape of baseball would be totally different today.

On the Costas note, there is something to be said for going outside of the sport to find a commissioner. As much as it sucked to lose a season, in the end Gary Bettman was a good hire to fix the NHL. Looking at some of the upper brass from the NFL wouldn't be the worst idea.

[caseyd]

Re: Did Hall voter do the right thing?

I think you're being a little harsh when it comes to Morris' postseason record.

1984 ALCS: 1-0 1.29 ERA

1984 WS 2-0 2.00 ERA

1987 ALCS 0-1 6.75 ERA (yep that was bad)

1991 ALCS 2-0 4.05 ERA (considering he was pitching against a high powered Toronto offense this isn't all that bad)

1991 WS 2-0 1.17 ERA(!)

It was the '92 playoffs that put his postseason record and ERA out of wack as he had a bad playoff all the way around.


As for Dale Murphy I agree the guy should be in the Hall. He did have a noticeable decline but looking at the numbers he still produced pretty good productive offensive numbers beside BA in those last few years.

The fact that he doesn't get in doesn't really bother me that much. It's how few votes he gets. If he had been louder and played for anything other than the worst team of the 70s and 80s, he'd probably get more respect. It's a shame. As far as Morris, don't take what I was saying wrong. Morris is still better than 95 percent of the pitchers today and deserves a spot.