Five Greatest Position Players of All Time

[Scottdau]

Re: Five Greatest Position Players of All Time

Say what you want about Bonds, but he was a great player, even before the allegations. More than hitting homeruns. In his prime, he had it all, power, speed, gold glove defense, hit for average. Only drawback was his relatively weak arm.

I am no Bonds fan, and I definitely think he enhanced his abilities, but you're kidding yourself if you believe he wasn't every bit as talented or good as the people on your list.

Yeah his arm is weak, he has a quick release, but and some what accurate. I think the Ricky was one of the most dangerous player ever.

[Chip Douglass]

Re: Five Greatest Position Players of All Time

Steroids or not, Bonds is a top-3 all-time player in my book. I highly doubt 'roiding up/bulking up a ton helps HR power. This is all on an assumption that Bonds did use steroids, which has never been proven.

Steroids don't help you hit a ball. They help you hit a ball farther.

[Knight165]

Re: Five Greatest Position Players of All Time

I'm fairly certain I said "average" player and not the likes of Honus Wagner, Ty Cobb, and company.

No. What you said was that average players of that time...would have NO chance against today's pitchers.....well since they had some success against the pitchers that the "elite" players of that day had better success against...I'm guessing that you also would have to knock down those players to merely average.....or "good".
Or are you saying that the players like Cobb, Ruth and Wagner would still be superior...and the other guys would simply look like little leaguers...with no in between?

Maybe I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn last night !....I'm confused...!

M.K.
Knight165

[Tomahawk]

Re: Five Greatest Position Players of All Time

The population in 1930 was 123,000,000 compared to 291,000,000 in 2000. That is 2.5 times. I can guarantee you that increases the talent pool. Not to mention that some kid destined to be a farmer somewhere in Nebraska back in the 20's is getting scouted from the time he is 13 in today's game.

The US population increased at a rate of 2.5 while the numbers of teams (12 to 30 = 2.5) increased at the same rate during that time. However, if the percent of kids playing baseball has declined significantly in this country what does this say about your talent pool? Just look at the black population playing baseball in this country if you don't think kids playing baseball has declined. Also, look at the number of kids playing basketball, football, soccer, and skateboarding who never, ever pick up a bat. I can't remember the last time I drove by a park and saw kids just playing baseball for the fun of it (not Little League just a big group playing), but I see plenty of kids on the playgrounds playing basketball, soccer, and riding skateboards. Even if you throw in the Hispanic and Asian players playing today you don't have more than 2.5 more quality players today compared to Ruth's era.

Again, time zones. Travel from coast to coast and even into Canada and Japan. We're talking train trips from New York to Boston and Cleveland as compared to flights from New York to Los Angeles to Texas.

I'd ride a plane in first class comfort from New York to California any day of the week before I rode in a cramped, bumpy train from New York to St. Louis.

Did you happen to see the gloves they used back then? (As mentioned in a previous post.)

Do those gloves today take away the doubles in the gaps and the homers hit 30 foot over the fence in the smaller ballparks with the better engineer bats and the higher quality balls?

Did it ever occur to you that players faced the same teams nearly double the amount of times they do now. I can't begin to imagine how much benefit it is to have the familiarity with pitchers you see over and over again (release points, pitching trends, etc.)

Could Babe Ruth and Ty Cobb pop in a DVD of tonight's pitchers last 10 starts along with a detailed scouting report with computerized analysis of pitches thrown in certain situations? Could Honus Wagner take batting practice with the pitchers windup simulated on a screeen in front of pitching machine?

Banned in 1920. Ruth's heyday started in the late 20's. Try again. The circle change is quite new (relatively speaking).

Ruth hit 54 homers in 1920 (must have not been his heyday yet). Circle change or not pitchers have thrown offspeed pitches and changed speeds ever since baseball has been played. However, players of the past didn't have the luxury of standing all over the plate waiting for a perfect pitch while wearing body armor and a helmet like Bonds does today. Plus, add in the fact the strike zone which favors the hitter in today's game. Guys like Bonds really have it rough.

[Knight165]

Re: Five Greatest Position Players of All Time

Squint......watch your back bro'...I made the mistake of discussing this with the famous T.V. psychic John Edwards.
He contacted Gil Hodges(lifetime .273 hitter....I'd say that's average) and boy are he and a couple of thousand other former BB players pissed!
Now if you don't believe in ghosts...then you got nothin to worry about!.....
Sorry!

M.K.
Knight165

[chippered]

Re: Five Greatest Position Players of All Time

I'm not gonna name names, because I think all of you guys mean well, but some of you guys need to read up on baseball in the early to mid 1900's. For some people to have such strong opinions on how things were, you would think that you actually knew what you were talking about.

I'm no expert, by any means. But some of you act like you know what your talking about, but your information is way off. History is fact. Take the time to read up on the history of this great game. No matter how much you think you know, you can always learn more. Thats one of the best parts of this game.

[Knight165]

Re: Five Greatest Position Players of All Time

Well you got me thinking.
Since I have about 30 books on baseball....from the simple but voluminous Baseball by the Numbers, which simply lists the players and what numbers they wore..year by year.....through every edition of the Baseball Encyclopedia(talk about BIG! ...and expensive)...to books like Total Baseball and Prospect Handbooks.
Anyway....I know I've seen the slider talked about by early pitchers....and sure enough.....Burleigh Grimes(270-212....3.53 ERA) who pitched from 1916-1934 used mainly three pitches the Spitball, Fastball and Curve but also threw a slider change and screwball.
Red Ruffing is often credited with "inventing" the slider 1924-1947(the year's he pitched) AND the SLURVE(which some called a sharp curve) but most say it's been around long before he pitched...he just "perfected" it.
Then look at a guy like Herb Pennock 1912-1934 who had three different curveballs and used four different arm slots to throw them!....throw in a change, a fastball and a screwball and the guy threw 6 pitches regularly.

Add into the fact that most of the early pitchers threw spitters, which made the ball do ungodly things(even though legal at the time....almost all spitball pitchers said they RARELY threw the spitter...they just went to their mouth on every pitch so the hitter wouldn't know when it was coming....Grimes said he once pitched an 18 inning game(that's friggin' nuts) and he only threw 3 spitters...that's how little they threw them) and I'm actually going to turn the whole average player thing around a complete 180 and say that TODAY'S average ballplayer couldn't make it pre-1950! Ha!:wink: Just kidding ...
anyway it looks like that "average" ballplayer of yesteryear had a little more on his plate than you thought, huh?

M.K.
Knight165

[bkrich83]

Re: Five Greatest Position Players of All Time

I can let every other part of your arguement go except this one.
No way no how are players of today somehow just able to hit any of those pitches you mentioned...(and I'm sure there was some variation of a slider pre-50's) when players of yesteryear could not.
Just not logical....you lost me on that one.

M.K.
Knight165

Again, Babe Ruth put up his numbers swinging a 42 oz. bat. That should give a good indication of the pitching in his day.

[Scottdau]

Re: Five Greatest Position Players of All Time

Again, Babe Ruth put up his numbers swinging a 42 oz. bat. That should give a good indication of the pitching in his day.

Treu, but the parks were freaking huge!

[bkrich83]

Re: Five Greatest Position Players of All Time

Treu, but the parks were freaking huge!

Irrelevant. I find it hard to believe you'd be able to swing a 42 oz. bat in todays era of pitching.

[bkrich83]

Re: Five Greatest Position Players of All Time

Well you got me thinking.
Since I have about 30 books on baseball....from the simple but voluminous Baseball by the Numbers, which simply lists the players and what numbers they wore..year by year.....through every edition of the Baseball Encyclopedia(talk about BIG! ...and expensive)...to books like Total Baseball and Prospect Handbooks.
Anyway....I know I've seen the slider talked about by early pitchers....and sure enough.....Burleigh Grimes(270-212....3.53 ERA) who pitched from 1916-1934 used mainly three pitches the Spitball, Fastball and Curve but also threw a slider change and screwball.
Red Ruffing is often credited with "inventing" the slider 1924-1947(the year's he pitched) AND the SLURVE(which some called a sharp curve) but most say it's been around long before he pitched...he just "perfected" it.
Then look at a guy like Herb Pennock 1912-1934 who had three different curveballs and used four different arm slots to throw them!....throw in a change, a fastball and a screwball and the guy threw 6 pitches regularly.

Add into the fact that most of the early pitchers threw spitters, which made the ball do ungodly things(even though legal at the time....almost all spitball pitchers said they RARELY threw the spitter...they just went to their mouth on every pitch so the hitter wouldn't know when it was coming....Grimes said he once pitched an 18 inning game(that's friggin' nuts) and he only threw 3 spitters...that's how little they threw them) and I'm actually going to turn the whole average player thing around a complete 180 and say that TODAY'S average ballplayer couldn't make it pre-1950! Ha!:wink: Just kidding ...
anyway it looks like that "average" ballplayer of yesteryear had a little more on his plate than you thought, huh?

M.K.
Knight165

You seem to be under the impression throwing more pitch types makes you a more effective or better pitcher. It doesn't. Don't have to look any further than Ariel Prieto to prove that point.

[ZM Punk]

Re: Five Greatest Position Players of All Time

You seem to be under the impression throwing more pitch types makes you a more effective or better pitcher. It doesn't. Don't have to look any further than Ariel Prieto to prove that point.

Agreed, just because someone throws alot of different pitches doesn't mean they are all effective. Plus it doesn't mean a thing if you can't control the pitches you throw. The number of pitches a certain pitcher throws means little IMO.

[BatsareBugs]

Re: Five Greatest Position Players of All Time

Treu, but the parks were freaking huge!

The alleys were, but aren't today's ballparks down-the-line farther than back then?

[Knight165]

Re: Five Greatest Position Players of All Time

You seem to be under the impression throwing more pitch types makes you a more effective or better pitcher. It doesn't. Don't have to look any further than Ariel Prieto to prove that point.

It's relevant to the fact that SOMEONE ALLUDED THAT PITCHERS OF THAT TIME DID NOT THROW THOSE PITCHES....
Try reading everything except what you want to Richard.


EDIT: Here let me help you out with that selective reading disorder

begin quote..........5. Players now face a split-fingered fastballs, sliders, circle-changes....you name it. My guess is that the average player from the teens-50's wouldn't stand a chance against today's pitching.
I could go on, but I'm sure you get the point.......end quote


M.K.
Knight165

[SportsTop]

Re: Five Greatest Position Players of All Time

It's relevant to the fact that SOMEONE ALLUDED THAT PITCHERS OF THAT TIME DID NOT THROW THOSE PITCHES....
Try reading everything except what you want to Richard.


EDIT: Here let me help you out with that selective reading disorder

begin quote..........5. Players now face a split-fingered fastballs, sliders, circle-changes....you name it. My guess is that the average player from the teens-50's wouldn't stand a chance against today's pitching.
I could go on, but I'm sure you get the point.......end quote


M.K.
Knight165

Let me rephrase for all of you getting hung up on one part of my original post.....

While pitchers back then may have thrown one pitch (or a variation of it) here or there, the quality of those pitches has gotten better and pitchers of today have more of an arsenal of them. Pedro Martinez comes at hitters with a devastating fastball, curve, slider, and change at a multitude of arm angles. My opinion is that he could dominate hitters back then. Clemens has a dominant fastball, slider, and one of the best forkballs ever. Again, this isn't to say Babe Ruth never faced a slider, but did he face quality pitchers with that type of repertoire? Kids today are throwing these pitches at 11-12 years old. They are developing these pitches at such an early age that seeing pitchers with four quality pitches is getting to be the norm.

This whole point of only have 12 teams so the quality was better is garbage too. 12 teams * 4 pitchers (3-4 man rotations were the norm) = 48 starters. How many of those were quality starters? You honestly think the ratio of quality starters from back then exceeds that of today?

Give me a break.

Not to mention the fact that hitters today often face over three "specialists" throughout a game....a starter, the set-up man, and a closer. These guys are all rested and don't experience near the fatigue pitchers from that era experienced.

So the argument is that hitters of yesteryear faced more "quality" pitchers because of the watered down league of today?

Whatever.