Howard MVP 2006, Rollins MVP 2007, Utley NL MVP 2008

[dkgojackets]

Re: Howard MVP 2006, Rollins MVP 2007, Utley NL MVP 2008

[BatsareBugs]

Re: Howard MVP 2006, Rollins MVP 2007, Utley NL MVP 2008

Phillies have that ballpark to thank for those MVPs. Not saying they're like the Rockeis and can only hit at home, but they do get a lot of help offensively with the park... but it costs them pitching-wise.

Still, I wouldn't be surprised if the MVP is another Phillie. That's a stacked lineup that has a ballpark that plays to that strength.

[Skerik]

Re: Howard MVP 2006, Rollins MVP 2007, Utley NL MVP 2008

Phillies have that ballpark to thank for those MVPs.

Ryan Howard 2006
Home: .309, 29 HR, 1.078 OPS
Road: .318, 29 HR, 1.089 OPS

Jimmy Rollins 2007
Home: .300, 13 2B, 18 HR, .892 OPS
Road: .293, 25 2B, 12 HR, .859 OPS

I'm going to keep posting this until people actually comprehend it.

[dkgojackets]

Re: Howard MVP 2006, Rollins MVP 2007, Utley NL MVP 2008

Hey an .859 OPS for Rollins. That's really impressive. Only 90 points lower than Hanley's for the season!!!

[Skerik]

Re: Howard MVP 2006, Rollins MVP 2007, Utley NL MVP 2008

Hey an .859 OPS for Rollins. That's really impressive. Only 90 points lower than Hanley's for the season!!!

Players who would have finished higher than Jimmy Rollins in MVP voting last year if OPS was the sole determinant in the voting process include Adam Dunn, Pat Burrell, Corey Hart and Aaron Rowand.

I know you worship at the altar of OPS, but maybe, just maybe, there's a little more than OPS that goes into being an MVP-caliber ballplayer.

[P2K]

Re: Howard MVP 2006, Rollins MVP 2007, Utley NL MVP 2008

Pat Burrell

That name right there should kill that argument 359 ways, but in here...pssshh...doubts.

[dkgojackets]

Re: Howard MVP 2006, Rollins MVP 2007, Utley NL MVP 2008

Players who would have finished higher than Jimmy Rollins in MVP voting last year if OPS was the sole determinant in the voting process include Adam Dunn, Pat Burrell, Corey Hart and Aaron Rowand.

I know you worship at the altar of OPS, but maybe, just maybe, there's a little more than OPS that goes into being an MVP-caliber ballplayer.

I didn't bring up OPS. You did in your post.

Although your argument here is really terrible because none of those players are shortstops. Show me a list of shortstops with an OPS higher than Hanley Ramirez's last year and then you have something to stand on. Outfielders are expected to have a higher OPS than middle infielders. Doesn't everyone know this?

[theaub]

Re: Howard MVP 2006, Rollins MVP 2007, Utley NL MVP 2008

This topic is five pages of horrible.

[Skerik]

Re: Howard MVP 2006, Rollins MVP 2007, Utley NL MVP 2008

I didn't bring up OPS. You did in your post.

Although your argument here is really terrible because none of those players are shortstops. Show me a list of shortstops with an OPS higher than Hanley Ramirez's last year and then you have something to stand on. Outfielders are expected to have a higher OPS than middle infielders. Doesn't everyone know this?

You really didn't understand that I was bringing it up to compare home/road splits and not to justify an MVP selection? Please.

And my argument isn't at all terrible - I totally agree that if you take fielding, leadership and team performance out of the equation, Hanley had a better statistical season. But sadly, MVP awards aren't, and have never been, just about who puts up the most gaudy offensive numbers.

[cjonesfan921]

Re: Howard MVP 2006, Rollins MVP 2007, Utley NL MVP 2008

Ryan Howard 2006
Home: .309, 29 HR, 1.078 OPS
Road: .318, 29 HR, 1.089 OPS

Jimmy Rollins 2007
Home: .300, 13 2B, 18 HR, .892 OPS
Road: .293, 25 2B, 12 HR, .859 OPS

I'm going to keep posting this until people actually comprehend it.

Burn.

Seriously, people just don't want to give the Phils any credit. Rollins deserved it, more than anyone, IMO. The year before, Howard deserved it.


EDIT: And to stick with the theme, and homer it up. Chipper FTW.

EDIT NUMERO DOS: Chipper had the highest OPS in the NL. Travesty he didn't win the MVP.

[dkgojackets]

Re: Howard MVP 2006, Rollins MVP 2007, Utley NL MVP 2008

You really didn't understand that I was bringing it up to compare home/road splits and not to justify an MVP selection? Please.

And my argument isn't at all terrible - I totally agree that if you take fielding, leadership and team performance out of the equation, Hanley had a better statistical season. But sadly, MVP awards aren't, and have never been, just about who puts up the most gaudy offensive numbers.

OK, so you want to use team performance this year to support Rollins because his team made the playoffs. Whatever, thats your right to make it a team award. I still see it as an individual award. You want to include fielding, great, you should.

SO HOW COME HOWARD DESERVED IT OVER PUJOLS IN 2006 WHEN PUJOLS MADE THE PLAYOFFS, HOWARD DID NOT, AND PUJOLS HAS THE BEST GLOVE AT HIS POSITION?

I believe this is an appropriate spot for the phrase "You can't have your cake and eat it too."

[BatsareBugs]

Re: Howard MVP 2006, Rollins MVP 2007, Utley NL MVP 2008

Phillies have that ballpark to thank for those MVPs. Not saying they're like the Rockeis and can only hit at home, but they do get a lot of help offensively with the park... but it costs them pitching-wise.

Still, I wouldn't be surprised if the MVP is another Phillie. That's a stacked lineup that has a ballpark that plays to that strength.

Ryan Howard 2006
Home: .309, 29 HR, 1.078 OPS
Road: .318, 29 HR, 1.089 OPS

Jimmy Rollins 2007
Home: .300, 13 2B, 18 HR, .892 OPS
Road: .293, 25 2B, 12 HR, .859 OPS

I'm going to keep posting this until people actually comprehend it.

And I'm going to bold my original post until you understand that I see the ballpark as a helping factor as a compliment, not an insult.



Go ahead. Repost those numbers. For all I know, Jimmy Rollins numbers before CBP were good for a SS, but gotten impressive afterwards. No need to argue against Howard and Utley as they're good enough players to hit anywhere. Just don't get hurt when I state something that is true about CBP. Helps hitters, hurts pitchers overall.

[dkgojackets]

Re: Howard MVP 2006, Rollins MVP 2007, Utley NL MVP 2008

For all I know, Jimmy Rollins numbers before CBP were good for a SS, but gotten impressive afterwards.

Because you showed interest.

AVG/OBP/SLG

2001 .274/.323/.419
2002 .245/.306/.380
2003 .263/.320/.387
2004 .289/.348/.455
2005 .290/.338/.431
2006 .277/.334/.478
2007 .296/.344/.531

I'll leave determing the year CBP opened as an exercise to the reader.

For comparison, just in case anyone for whatever reason thinks Rollins is the top offensive shortstop.

Hanley Ramirez 2007: .332/.386/.562

[cjonesfan921]

Re: Howard MVP 2006, Rollins MVP 2007, Utley NL MVP 2008

I still don't see how Chipper did not win, according to the criteria some want to use.

[BatsareBugs]

Re: Howard MVP 2006, Rollins MVP 2007, Utley NL MVP 2008

Because you showed interest.

AVG/OBP/SLG

2001 .274/.323/.419
2002 .245/.306/.380
2003 .263/.320/.387
2004 .289/.348/.455
2005 .290/.338/.431
2006 .277/.334/.478
2007 .296/.344/.531

I'll leave determing the year CBP opened as an exercise to the reader.

For comparison, just in case anyone for whatever reason thinks Rollins is the top offensive shortstop.

Hanley Ramirez 2007: .332/.386/.562

CBP opened the same year as Petco Park, 2004. That I know.

Rollins's home run numbers didn't jump up until 2006, he's consistently stolen bases and hit for extra-bases, but to say the CBP did not have a factor on him offensively is foolish.