Your Batting Order Formulas

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  • ryanm1058123
    Banned
    • Jan 2004
    • 3628

    #76
    Re: Your Batting Order Formulas

    #1 hitter with best OBP
    #2 hitter with 2nd best OBP
    #3 best hitter
    #4 2nd best hitter
    #5 so on and so forth

    Comment

    • Blzer
      Resident film pundit
      • Mar 2004
      • 42520

      #77
      Re: Your Batting Order Formulas



      Since we have some newcomers on board, I wanted to revive this thread and see what some others think. I'm coaching a softball team this fall, and although it's a different sport than baseball, I wanted to hear more philosophies on batting orders.

      I'm not one to keep my opinion the way it is. I will only defend it until I've been proven otherwise. After all, why would I go with what I think is an incorrect opinion?

      Anyway, to this date, my sentiments on the batting order have largely remained unchanged.
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      • snepp
        We'll waste him too.
        • Apr 2003
        • 10007

        #78
        Re: Your Batting Order Formulas

        Putting horrible players in the 2nd spot for no other reason than to intentionally flush outs down the toilet is just as lousy as it was three years ago.
        Member of The OS Baseball Rocket Scientists Association

        Comment

        • Blzer
          Resident film pundit
          • Mar 2004
          • 42520

          #79
          Re: Your Batting Order Formulas

          Originally posted by snepp
          Putting horrible players in the 2nd spot for no other reason than to intentionally flush outs down the toilet is just as lousy as it was three years ago.
          I just want people to keep in mind that I'm not putting "horrible" batters in the second slot. I simply want them to identify their role on the lineup, that's all. They are still good players (look at Freddy Sanchez, Derek Jeter, Shane Victorino, Chipper Jones back in the day...). Their role, however, is to be productive in any given at-bat with runners on base.

          There is a difference between this and the cleanup hitter. The cleanup hitter will take a gamble at trying to connect and drive the ball deep, at the cost of sacrificing contact chance, and perhaps getting under it for a can o' corn fly out. The #2 hitter, however, will set things in motion. If he does it by collecting a hit, that's the best outcome we could possibly want from him. If he strikes out, pops up, or grounds into a double play, these are poor outcomes that our #2 hitter will normally avoid, simply because he has good bat control.

          Good bat control does many things: if that lead-off hitter is on first base, it exposes the right side of the field to punch a ball through. Or he might take some pitches to allow the lead-off hitter to steal second, which again is now a prime position to get him to third base. If he gets a base hit, that's even better... but he will be the selfless man of producing on some level before taking that gamble to drive him in. We have the next three hitters for that very reason. Finally, they can put on hit-and-run plays. You can bet on contact with them, and once again this is a nice way to get that runner into scoring position. Or, they can bunt... but I think that will lead you back into thinking I just consider these hitters to be horrible.

          I think they're anything but horrible. They're probably the smartest player in your lineup. If the lead-off hitter doesn't get on, I still want them to get a chance to get on themselves. The players that I mentioned above have a great chance of doing that for you.
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          • philliesfan136
            MVP
            • Feb 2011
            • 4263

            #80
            Re: Your Batting Order Formulas

            1st - Speedy, good BA, steals bases well
            2nd- Same as 1st, but with the ability to bunt.
            3rd- Best all around-hitter, should have some good power, contact, and speed numbers, should be #2 in homers behind 4th hitter
            4th- Big homerun hitter, should have good plate discipline because I can't have him striking out with guys on base
            5th- Usually another power guy
            6th- Another power guy, prob should have some speed
            7th- Decent contact hitter, should be fast and have some ability to bunt
            8th- Same as 7th pretty much
            9th (When it's a hitter)- Good bunter, fast, good contact
            Things Wrong With Madden Doc

            Comment

            • CabreraMVP
              MVP
              • Sep 2010
              • 1437

              #81
              Re: Your Batting Order Formulas

              Me and my friends have our own baseball team over the summer and I'm the manager also, so I make the lineups. I'm pretty conventional.

              Speed at the leadoff spot

              A guy who can just handle the bat in the 2 hole. Like Polanco. Moving the runner over, 2 strike hitting, just putting the bat on the ball. Hate strikeouts.

              3rd - I'd put my best all around hitter.
              4th- I like extra base power more here

              That's really it. It's too hard to piece things together after that. Victor Martinez is not your typical idea of a 5th hitter, only 11 homeruns, but he just racks up hits, so it works. Placido Polanco is not your typical 3 hitter, but whenever he was put there, he would just rack up hits so it was hard to complain.

              The reason I don't mention OBP is because your best hitters are always going to be in the top half of your lineup, and your best hitters will always have your best OBP. You want a good on base percentage from everybody in your lineup.

              I've been really involved in the Tigers Lineup this season and the HORRIBLE lineups Leyland has ran out there. The Talk of Detroit until August was all about lineups.

              For the first month of the season, our 1-2-3 hitters all hit .200. Our 6-7-8 hitters all hit .300 but no lineup move ever happened.

              He had Magglio hit 3rd UNTIL AUGUST, even though he was hitting .220 with 10 extra base hits. The Tigers struggling utility man Ryan Raburn had 30 extra base hits in that time. But Ordonez kept hitting third.

              Also Leyland lately is a big fan of Don Kelly and his career .280 OBP in the 2 spot. There's really no reason for that.

              Avila hit 8th for most of the first half, even though he's been top 10 in OPS all season.

              If I was in charge, this would be the Tigers batting order:

              Jackson (Obvious choice)
              Boesch
              Cabrera (I don't understand why he hits cleanup)
              Martinez
              Avila
              Young
              Peralta
              Betemit
              Santiago

              I dont like Cabrera hitting cleanup, especially when Leyland always has a revolving door of out machines hitting 2nd. It doesn't make sense. You want to maximize RBI opportunities for your best run producers. That's really the name of the game for me. Have guys on base with your best hitter or best two hitters at the plate, and you will have a lot of success.

              Also I hear a lot of managers talking about not wanting to move a guy in the order because of comfort. Leyland would say this about Avila. I say that is BS! Whenever I play baseball, and my coach hit me in the top half of the lineup, I was pretty darn excited and played my best. So for Leyland to think that Avila would collapse under the immense pressure of hitting in fronting of Miguel Cabrera (and getting great pitches to hit) then I really think he needs to lighten up a bit.

              And my final world, there are some ridiculous people who claim the best way to make a lineup is to just put the highest OPS first and go down in order. HAHA. This guy tells me Albert Pujols should hit leadoff. Every pitcher (and team) wants to face Pujols with the bases empty. So he can't hurt you as much. So why hit him leadoff?! That's crazy.
              Last edited by CabreraMVP; 09-24-2011, 03:48 PM.
              JayElectronicaBluElzhi2PacTheNotoriousB.I.G.ReksSc arfaceFashawnJeruThaDamaja

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              • NYJets
                Hall Of Fame
                • Jul 2002
                • 18637

                #82
                Re: Your Batting Order Formulas

                Originally posted by CabreraMVP

                And my final world, there are some ridiculous people who claim the best way to make a lineup is to just put the highest OPS first and go down in order. HAHA. This guy tells me Albert Pujols should hit leadoff. Every pitcher (and team) wants to face Pujols with the bases empty. So he can't hurt you as much. So why hit him leadoff?! That's crazy.

                Not as crazy as batting Austin Jackson and his .316 obp leadoff.
                Originally posted by Jay Bilas
                The question isn't whether UConn belongs with the elites, but over the last 20 years, whether the rest of the college basketball elite belongs with UConn

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                • CabreraMVP
                  MVP
                  • Sep 2010
                  • 1437

                  #83
                  Re: Your Batting Order Formulas

                  Originally posted by NYJets
                  Not as crazy as batting Austin Jackson and his .316 obp leadoff.
                  He's .333 since May. Not ideal, but it's fine considering how bad he struggled in April. He's not the problem with their offense.

                  Not like their is a better option to hit leadoff on their team. People say Peralta because of his OBP, but he's just not a leadoff hitter.

                  And honestly I would rather have Jackson leading off than Pujols haha, would you rather have 37 solo homeruns and Jackson batting cleanup? lol
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                  • TCM
                    MVP
                    • Jun 2011
                    • 1800

                    #84
                    Re: Your Batting Order Formulas

                    Originally posted by CabreraMVP
                    He's .333 since May. Not ideal, but it's fine considering how bad he struggled in April. He's not the problem with their offense.

                    Not like their is a better option to hit leadoff on their team. People say Peralta because of his OBP, but he's just not a leadoff hitter.

                    And honestly I would rather have Jackson leading off than Pujols haha, would you rather have 37 solo homeruns and Jackson batting cleanup? lol
                    No I'd rather have a guy who gets on base and doesn't strike out 170+ times a season.
                    1905 1921 1922 1933 1954 2010 2012
                    San Francisco Giants

                    Butte College

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                    • CabreraMVP
                      MVP
                      • Sep 2010
                      • 1437

                      #85
                      Re: Your Batting Order Formulas

                      I would try to relate that situation to the Twins to put it in perspective, except they dont have any homerun hitters.

                      We can keep talking about Jackson, like its supposed to hurt my feelings or something, but with all his strikeouts and struggles, he still gets on base more than Ichiro, Revere, he's nowhere near the worst leadoff hitter. He's had a down year, but he's in his second season and will improve.
                      Last edited by CabreraMVP; 09-25-2011, 01:37 PM.
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                      • Blzer
                        Resident film pundit
                        • Mar 2004
                        • 42520

                        #86
                        Re: Your Batting Order Formulas

                        Yeah, to be honest, I'm okay with leadoff hitters striking out. I know it's not their aim, but if they're leading off a game/inning, a strikeout is no different than grounding out, popping up, or even being robbed of a home run. Your game is to get on base, no matter how it's done. If you end up not getting on base, it doesn't matter how that's done either.

                        The main reason I'm okay with it is because I like leadoff hitters working the count. They take the sacrifice of looking for walks and letting other hitters see what kind of stuff the pitcher has, how he sequences, etc. I'm not saying they should have a hole in their swing, but the #2 hitter is more important for contact than the leadoff hitter IMO.
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                        • CabreraMVP
                          MVP
                          • Sep 2010
                          • 1437

                          #87
                          Re: Your Batting Order Formulas

                          I agree. I think strikeouts are overrated. Like last season, Jackson hit .293 and struck out 170 times. I don't care whether his outs are flyouts or strikeouts. Outs are outs, hits are hits. And more specifically with Jackson hitting lead off, if you want him to become a great lead off hitter, he is going to have to struggle at that spot at some point. You just have to live with him at that leadoff spot, you gotta struggle at some point in order to get better. He's learned a lot this year.

                          His .345 OBP last year was great for a rookie who was supposed to not being able to work counts, get on base, etc. I expect him to come back next year around .350.

                          Granderson's rookie season, he had a .335 OBP with 170 strikeouts. All you heard was "he can't leadoff." Each season after (minus 2008, down year) he cut down on strikeouts, walked more, and just learned how to be patient and get on base.
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                          • NYJets
                            Hall Of Fame
                            • Jul 2002
                            • 18637

                            #88
                            Re: Your Batting Order Formulas

                            Hitting is hitting. Batting leadoff does not teach you to be patient just like batting cleanup doesn't teach you to hit 40 homers. If he develops into a high on base guy than in the future he can move to the leadoff spot. But until that happens, I don't know why they feel the need to give him the most at bats on the team.
                            Originally posted by Jay Bilas
                            The question isn't whether UConn belongs with the elites, but over the last 20 years, whether the rest of the college basketball elite belongs with UConn

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                            • Blzer
                              Resident film pundit
                              • Mar 2004
                              • 42520

                              #89
                              Re: Your Batting Order Formulas

                              Originally posted by NYJets
                              Hitting is hitting. Batting leadoff does not teach you to be patient just like batting cleanup doesn't teach you to hit 40 homers.
                              It depends on the kind of player you are. I teach my softball players what kind of role they have on the team based on where they are in the order, or what the situation calls for. They understand the difference between a #2 hitter and a #5 hitter, etc.

                              Now CabreraMVP, I know someone is going to come in here and argue BABIP, and therefore leadoff hitters should strikeout less if they want to be more successful... but that's like saying Russell Branyan would hit thirty more home runs if he never struck out. That would require him to sacrifice power for contact in some regard, and he wouldn't hit any more home runs as a result. Likewise, you're taking something away from leadoff hitters if you're asking them to do "a bit less," which would lower their BABIP. Those strikeouts would more than likely become ground outs, as opposed to singles.
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                              • CabreraMVP
                                MVP
                                • Sep 2010
                                • 1437

                                #90
                                Re: Your Batting Order Formulas

                                Originally posted by NYJets
                                Hitting is hitting. Batting leadoff does not teach you to be patient just like batting cleanup doesn't teach you to hit 40 homers. If he develops into a high on base guy than in the future he can move to the leadoff spot. But until that happens, I don't know why they feel the need to give him the most at bats on the team.
                                To be a good leadoff hitter you have to think like one. If you want to succeed as a leadoff hitter, you HAVE to be a patient hitter, it doesn't MAKE you patient, but it requires you to be patient if you want to be good at it. Magically becoming patient and being forced to be patient (therefore becoming more patient) are two different things.

                                It's not really that big of an issue. He got on base at a .345 clip last season which is right there with Andrus, and Bourn, who are pretty good leadoff hitters.

                                It's one bad month, April. From that point on he has been fine, and the Tigers have been one of the best offensives in baseball. As deep as any lineup.

                                I know a lot of Yankee fans feel the need to degrade Jackson for apparently not becoming a great a Yankee, but this really not an issue. You single him out while people like Ichiro has been worse, for a horrible offensive club. Maybe if Ichiro got on more, they could actually score a few runs? Maybe win more than 65 games? But instead you continue to single out Jackson even though he has scored 91 runs and the Tigers still are a dominant hitting team. It's really pointless.

                                Instead of worrying about ways the Tigers can become even more stronger offensively, try to worry about your starting pitching and if you have enough to stop them. :wink:
                                Last edited by CabreraMVP; 09-28-2011, 10:32 PM.
                                JayElectronicaBluElzhi2PacTheNotoriousB.I.G.ReksSc arfaceFashawnJeruThaDamaja

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