Does Anybody Really Care about who juiced...does it matter?

[MaverickisBack]

I personally dont care if these guys juiced or not. Its just baseball. Its a game meant for entertainment. As far as the steroids with kids...I dont care...its not an epidemic. And frankly, most roids are taken by non-athletes. The larger problem is the negative body image kids have...and frankly i blame Hollywood and air brushing far more.

Also...as I have said before there are NO studies to link steroids (properly used) to death or serious long term problems.

The real problem is the amount of tax payer money wasted on trials for Clemens and Bonds...and if Bonds is guilty and does jail time....we have to pay for that too. Sorry I dont want my jails filled with future HOF who have never hurt anyone.

As far as competitive advantage...who cares. Rich kids have competitive advantages in life over poor kids. White kids have competitive advantages over Blacks in life. All of these have a much larger impact in life then does what A-Rod put in his *** in 2003.

George Bush is the greatest example...he would not be where he was if it wasnt for the competitive advantage of his father and his family wealth. His competitive advantage has screwed over the country for years to come. Bonds advantage...led to an increase in kayak sales in the Bay area. THe difference is that Barry had to also use hard work...whereas Bush did not. Ironically, Bonds is on trial he is responsible for the deaths of no one and the eroding of no financial markets or the decrease in the appeal of America.

All this steroid talk is just to mask the real competitive advantages in our society. Remember when Bush went on the air and talked about the need to end steroid use in baseballl....i wish he put as much thought into WMDs, Iraq, the war on terror and the near recession he played a role in. But I guess HGH warrants the Presidents attention as much.

My point is....lets get off of it. Its non-important.

I hate to throw this in...but its TOTALLY racially charged

Sosa, Bonds, A-Rod, Palmerio, Canseco, Sheffeild vs Clemens, McGwire, Pettite, Giambi

I find it interesting that the Blacks and Latino's have gotten WAAAY more heat then their white counterparts. They ALL did the same thing. BUt imo estimation...one group is getting alot more flack

[EnigmaNemesis]

Re: Does Anybody Really Care about who juiced...does it matter?

I care in the sense that MLB thinks they are above the law, and duping fans and the government this whole time, while trying to cover it up and only release suspensions for no-name who cares about shlubs.

And the fact that any normal every day person would be facing federal prison terms, hands down.

[MaverickisBack]

Re: Does Anybody Really Care about who juiced...does it matter?

I care in the sense that MLB thinks they are above the law, and duping fans and the government this whole time, while trying to cover it up and only release suspensions for no-name who cares about shlubs.

And the fact that any normal every day person would be facing federal prison terms, hands down.

NO...if you are I took roids...nobody would know or care. We wouldnt be facing a grand jury. Also...why are steroids illegal in the first place?

As far a duping the fans...MLBs job is to put a good product on the feild...they do that. The Sosa/McGwire homerun race was a great product. Do you get upset at CGI in movies...do you think Universal studios is duping you.

Also...let us not forget that Mantle, Ruth and others were alcoholics....MLB did not promote those facts...nor did they promote that certain players were racist throught the years

Lol...dude Ty Cobb was a known racist, Barry Bonds took roids...which is worse. I havent seen steroids effect anyone negatively...and if it did...it would ONLY be the user. NOt to mention that it was taken to better themselves. Racism hurts tons of people and in no way betters performance

Maybe Ty Cobb should not be in the HOF....what worse alcholism and racism or steroid abuse. Think about it

[Brandon13]

Re: Does Anybody Really Care about who juiced...does it matter?

In the grand scheme of things it's not a big deal at all. But just in terms of Major League Baseball it's huge. Stats and records are such a huge aspect of baseball that it just can't help but be a big deal.

[Kashanova]

Re: Does Anybody Really Care about who juiced...does it matter?

Players are getting a bad rap. The Union and MLB should be getting a bad rap for not doing anything for years.

[Brandon13]

Re: Does Anybody Really Care about who juiced...does it matter?

NO...if you are I took roids...nobody would know or care. We wouldnt be facing a grand jury. Also...why are steroids illegal in the first place?

As far a duping the fans...MLBs job is to put a good product on the feild...they do that. The Sosa/McGwire homerun race was a great product. Do you get upset at CGI in movies...do you think Universal studios is duping you.

Also...let us not forget that Mantle, Ruth and others were alcoholics....MLB did promote those facts...nor did they promote that certain players were racist throught the years

Lol...dude Ty Cobb was a known racist, Barry Bonds took roids...which is worse. I havent seen steroids effect anyone negatively...and if it did...it would ONLY be the user. NOt to mention that it was taken to better themselves. Racism hurts tons of people.

Maybe Ty Cobb should not be in the HOF....what worse alcholism and racism or steroid abuse. Think about it

In terms of just baseball? Steroids are much worse than alcoholism and racism. Unless you can make the argument that those things hurt Major League Baseball's on-the-field reputation and made people question the legitimacy of the sport, then I don't even think it's really a valid comparison.

[Mo]

Re: Does Anybody Really Care about who juiced...does it matter?

I don't care, its entertainment, these players know the risk and if they don't care, why should I.

[MaverickisBack]

Re: Does Anybody Really Care about who juiced...does it matter?

In the grand scheme of things it's not a big deal at all. But just in terms of Major League Baseball it's huge. Stats and records are such a huge aspect of baseball that it just can't help but be a big deal.

At the same point...we dont know if the records would not have been broken ANYWAY. Look at A-Rod for example...even if I were to say that he used in 2002-2004. It really didnt improve his numbers. McGwire hit 49 homers in his rookie year and always had the potential to break the records. He often was on pace to in various seasons...but injury held him back.

Bonds was exploded...yes, but how do we know he wouldnt have done it anyway. He is a phenomenal athlete maybe the best in MLB history prior to taking roids.

As far as comparing records goes...its not fair...the quality of pitching, types of balls used, better training, better legal supplements and size of ball parks also led to the boom in homers.

Also....keep this in mind...the old guys had advantages...no speciality pitchers, fewer in depth scouting reports, Pitchers throwing more innings (more tired arms to face), no closers, less media coverage.

would Williams have hit .400 he face Jesse Orosco in late innings
would Joe D have hit in 56 straight if there was the amount of press
Would Maris have broken the record if there were more in depth scouting reports?
Would Ruth have hit 60 if there were pics on the internet of him getting drunk and womanizing in the paper the night before?

We dont know....comparing todays players to yesterdays is apples and oranges...even with steroids

[MaverickisBack]

Re: Does Anybody Really Care about who juiced...does it matter?

In terms of just baseball? Steroids are much worse than alcoholism and racism. Unless you can make the argument that those things hurt Major League Baseball's on-the-field reputation and made people question the legitimacy of the sport, then I don't even think it's really a valid comparison.

I can give 2 players to show that alcoholism and racism impacted in terms of just baseball

Josh Gibson might have destroyed every homer run record if not for racism

Hank Aaron might have been able to hit another 100 career Homers. I dont remember Ruth getting death threats.

Mantle and Foxx could have potentially have broke the homer records if it wasnt for alcholism contributing to their diminished skills

so racism and alcholism have had a tremendous impact on baseball.


Black players not being able to compete against HOF like Ruth totally takes away from the legitmacy of the MLB...they didnt have all the best players. Take a look at todays game...take away all the Black and Latino players...wouldnt that hurt the on-feild quality more than steroids.

Maybe McGwire would hit more homers if he never had to face Pedro Martinez, Mariano Rivera, CC Sabathia, etc. Maybe Roger Clemens would have had more wins if he never had to face Sheffeild, Manny, J Gonzalez, Jeter, Ortiz, Joe Carter etc.

As far as alcholism...the mere fact that players didnt take as good of care of themselves takes away from the quality. Mantle had once said he hit some homers drunk....yes, but how many times did he strikeout with a hangover. Plus it took away from his longevity. The entire Yanks team of the60s was known for drinking...how good would they ahve been if they didnt..

Ruth was a huge drinker, who didnt take care of himself...if he had the workout of A-Rod....(steroids or not) he could have been better.

Keep in mind...if you take steroids and dont work out...it does nothing...so these guys are in better shape anyway then the guys in the past

[Brandon13]

Re: Does Anybody Really Care about who juiced...does it matter?

Bonds was exploded...yes, but how do we know he wouldnt have done it anyway. He is a phenomenal athlete maybe the best in MLB history prior to taking roids.

He wouldn't have become possibly the greatest hitter of all time in his latter 30s without steroids. He just wouldn't have. He was a great player before the 'roids but he wasn't the best of all time.

As far as comparing records goes...its not fair...the quality of pitching, types of balls used, better training, better legal supplements and size of ball parks also led to the boom in homers.

Also....keep this in mind...the old guys had advantages...no speciality pitchers, fewer in depth scouting reports, Pitchers throwing more innings (more tired arms to face), no closers, less media coverage.

would Williams have hit .400 he face Jesse Orosco in late innings
would Joe D have hit in 56 straight if there was the amount of press
Would Maris have broken the record if there were more in depth scouting reports?
Would Ruth have hit 60 if there were pics on the internet of him getting drunk and womanizing in the paper the night before?

We dont know....comparing todays players to yesterdays is apples and oranges...even with steroids

All of that is true, but none of that brought in to question the integrity of the game. People can go on all day long that steroids weren't banned in baseball (they actually were in '91 there just wasn't any testing for them) but they were and are against the law.

[MaverickisBack]

Re: Does Anybody Really Care about who juiced...does it matter?

He wouldn't have become possibly the greatest hitter of all time in his latter 30s without steroids. He just wouldn't have. He was a great player before the 'roids but he wasn't the best of all time.



All of that is true, but none of that brought in to question the integrity of the game. People can go on all day long that steroids weren't banned in baseball (they actually were in '91 there just wasn't any testing for them) but they were and are against the law.

There is NO way of knowing how steroids hurt or helped him. The dude is super intelligent and a great athlete...he isnt normal by definition. He also took great care of himself. He may have gotten better with age anyway....see George Foreman

Also...not having some of the greatest players in the game baseball not being allowed to play because of race totally takes away from the integrity. Would current MLB have any integrity if the following players were taken off the rosters tommorrow

Sabathia, Jeter, Rivera, Delgado, Reyes, Rollins, J. Santana, Howard, Feilder, Wells, Crawford, M. Ramirez, Soriano, Price, Dye, Griffey, Upton, Hunter, V. Guerroe, Willis, Sheffeild, B Phillips, Rodney, Belte, Maybin, Cameron, M. Bradley, Weeks, B Hall, Granderson etc, etc, etc. This doesnt even include the internatioal players

I think the lose of those players and others would have far more impact then steroids on the sport. Just ask yourself this...if teams that those guys were on last year decided to let them go...then brought up or signed a FA in there place...now if that person who they replaced took steroids....would the team have improved or gotten worse.

Jeter vs Alex Gonzalez on roids
Sabathia or Chase Wright on roids
Torri Hunter or Reggie Willits on roids
Ryan Howard or ? on roids

do you get my point

[SPTO]

Re: Does Anybody Really Care about who juiced...does it matter?

He wouldn't have become possibly the greatest hitter of all time in his latter 30s without steroids. He just wouldn't have. He was a great player before the 'roids but he wasn't the best of all time.

Just to expand on this, I believe the most HRs Bonds ever hit in his career before going on the juice was 30 or 35 which is still a lot but the man was more then just a HR threat every AB. He was a damn good base stealer, a gold glove outfielder and was an all-around great player. Now logic dictates that if he couldn't hit more then 30 HRs in a pitcher's park like Three Rivers then how the hell can he hit 60 and 70+ HRs in an even more pitcher friendly park in San Fran in his late 30s? It's not possible.

Don't bring up Aaron either because while he was the HR king he was a model of consistency until his last 3 years or so as he used to hit 30-40 HRs a year. He NEVER hit more then 50 in his entire career unlike guys like Bonds, McGwire or Sosa who suddenly developed godlike strength at the back ends of their careers.

This is serious stuff in the prism of professional sports. There are of course much bigger fish to fry but when you're talking the integrity of professional sports this is some of the worst stuff you can do. Cheating is Cheating no matter what.

Also in regards to steroid use by youth? You'd be surrpised. A lot of the kids that are on the cusp of getting professional contracts load up on HGH or roids just so they can make an impression on their coaches and scouts. I wouldn't say it's a completely widespread epidemic but i'd say a good 60% or more at least try the stuff and that's 60% more then what's acceptable IMO.

[LingeringRegime]

Re: Does Anybody Really Care about who juiced...does it matter?

If you are a TRUE fan of the game of Baseball, of course it matters. And anyone that has ever juiced should never even be considered for the HOF, they have betrayed the integrity of the game, and to me that means much more than their lofty stats.

If it is "okay" or "forgivable" where does it end? Might as well start giving injections to junior high prospects...

[MaverickisBack]

Re: Does Anybody Really Care about who juiced...does it matter?

He wouldn't have become possibly the greatest hitter of all time in his latter 30s without steroids. He just wouldn't have. He was a great player before the 'roids but he wasn't the best of all time.
.

lol...yeah, last guy to do something like that was....drum roll please....

Babe Ruth. except Barry was a better athlete who took better care of himself

[SPTO]

Re: Does Anybody Really Care about who juiced...does it matter?

lol...yeah, last guy to do something like that was....drum roll please....

Babe Ruth. except Barry was a better athlete who took better care of himself

Um, Ruth had the HR numbers all throughout his career even when he was a pitcher with the Red Sox he was smashing balls out of the park. He kept that pace up throughout his career. Bonds was a fairly good power hitter who suddenly acquired super human power in the latter half of his career. That's NOT natural.