Is all cheating the same?

[ehh]

Re: Is all cheating the same?

I dont think its thier job to "realize" that. Its the parents jobs to teach them that.

And good luck to parents with that, most kids aren't going to realize it no matter how hard a parent tries to impose that upon them.

[aukevin]

Re: Is all cheating the same?

I agree with JBH3.

Juicing gives your body an advantage over someone that isn't willing to risk his health and that makes it worse IMO than stealing signs, scuffing balls, corking bats, etc. Also, I think juicing can be done in secret whereas the other offenses can be determined.

[GSW]

Re: Is all cheating the same?

No.

Someone throwing a spit ball or scuffing the ball up is something you would probably be thrown out of the game for, and wouldn't tarnish your legacy.

Corking your bat would be something that you could get thrown out of the game for, have maybe your recent history of stats put into question.

Taking steroids is something that you can get a 50 game ban for, and can ruin your entire legacy because you are not the who baseball has deemed legal.

Now, do I think taking steroids is as bad as people make it out to be? Nah. Steroids makes a good player great, a great player a HOF'er, a HOF'er to the best ever. It cannot make you a crap player into a HOF'er, because there is just so much more that goes into it.

this right here is why some people dont like baseball.

Im not trying to chaneg your mind, but if youre a cheater... youre a cheater. Legacy shouldnt come in to play at all IMO... thats irelevant to the point in time you were cheating, and what method of cheating you used.

still cheated.

If we are playing madden and youre looking at my fingers to see what play i select and you choose the best defense to comabt that play, you are cheating.

just liek if you input a code without me knowing prior to our playing...that is still cheating and you are a cheater and should be treated the same in both instances.

In my book anyway

[JBH3]

Re: Is all cheating the same?

Thats not a consequence to them...(like you said)

so i ask again, what are THEIR consequences...and to go a level deeper why wouldnt they care.

I dont think its thier job to "realize" that. Its the parents jobs to teach them that.

Yes, it is the parents, but sadly (my wife is a teacher) most parents will blame the teacher. When it is the parent that has raised the child who sees it ok to cheat.

If we're talking about highschool kids then they know full well <ENOUGH>the disadvantage, especially if they are considering college.

[GSW]

Re: Is all cheating the same?

And good luck to parents with that, most kids aren't going to realize it no matter how hard a parent tries to impose that upon them.

I want to adress this but i dont think thsi is the correct thread for it.

And i dont want to be "that guy" right now.

Hopefully we get to discuss this some time in the future though...it leads to good discussion

[OSUFan_88]

Re: Is all cheating the same?

this right here is why some people dont like baseball.

Im not trying to chaneg your mind, but if youre a cheater... youre a cheater. Legacy shouldnt come in to play at all IMO... thats irelevant to the point in time you were cheating, and what method of cheating you used.

still cheated.

If we are playing madden and youre looking at my fingers to see what play i select and you choose the best defense to comabt that play, you are cheating.

just liek if you input a code without me knowing prior to our playing...that is still cheating and you are a cheater and should be treated the same in both instances.

In my book anyway

They are all cheaters. The thing that comes into play is how bad is the cheating.

There are huge degrees of cheating that all have different consequences.

[GSW]

Re: Is all cheating the same?

Yes, it is the parents, but sadly (my wife is a teacher) most parents will blame the teacher. When it is the parent that has raised the child who sees it ok to cheat.

If we're talking about highschool kids then they know full well <ENOUGH>the disadvantage, especially if they are considering college.

cold part is whats the teacher supposed to do with a kid unwilling to learn, because that kid was never taught to thirst for knowledge, and to respect other people.

I was a bad kid in school, not because i didnt want to learn, but I just so happen learn in a different way then how our public school system teaches... so i got bored with it all and 'gave up' in a sense.

But even still it was enstilled in me as a kid that nothing good comes from cheating and lying.

[SPTO]

Re: Is all cheating the same?

About parenting and kids on this issue. I look at it this way. Most kids who are talented enough to go into sports will have a rebellious streak to them but even if they're straight arrow kids there's the danger of preaching against something too much. It's like drugs and alcohol, parents preach against it but everybody has tried one or the other at least once in their lives.

An athlete will undoubtedly try some form of PEDs no matter how much the parents preach against it. It could be a one time thing (which is ok in my book because we all rebel at some point in our lives) but it could also lead to a behavior pattern of needing the PEDs.

Also, like it or not, a large percentage of kids that get into sports come from a tough or at the very least economically troublesome backgrounds and sports is an escape from what they've been through. Someone in that position will try damn near anything in order to make their dreams reality so that they can provide for their families and whatnot.

[GSW]

Re: Is all cheating the same?

They are all cheaters. The thing that comes into play is how bad is the cheating.

There are huge degrees of cheating that all have different consequences.

I tihnk this is where i get lost in the whole "cheating" thing.

If you lie to someone you are a liar, right?
It doesnt matter if you just said you went to the store and you didnt, you knowingly and willingly lied about youre intentions. am i right?
I dont believe in "white lies"...

If you cheat in a game, you are a cheater.

I dont have levels i apply to the cheating because they are all dishonest and not right.

When you apply filters to it it allows you to justify one kind as being "okay", where as the other level is a big .

when in reality neither should be acceptable and should all be looked down upon equally.

all that being said, if someone openly admits they cheated, and lied. I beelive that person should be given the benifit of the doubt when they say they are no longer cheating and lying.

So when it comes to the case of Alex rodriguez or anyone who cheated while playing the game of baseball. I will personally say...so and so were cheaters....Alex was a cheater and a liar too but at least he admitted to it and stopped...

Just like when you're playing a video game, if you are a known cheater, and you come to me and say man im sorry, and show me that you no longer cheat, i can enjoy playing with you again.

no cheating style is worse or lighter then the other in my opinion

[OSUFan_88]

Re: Is all cheating the same?

I tihnk this is where i get lost in the whole "cheating" thing.

If you lie to someone you are a liar, right?
It doesnt matter if you just said you went to the store and you didnt, you knowingly and willingly lied about youre intentions. am i right?
I dont believe in "white lies"...

If you cheat in a game, you are a cheater.

I dont have levels i apply to the cheating because they are all dishonest and not right.

When you apply filters to it it allows you to justify one kind as being "okay", where as the other level is a big .

when in reality neither should be acceptable and should all be looked down upon equally.

all that being said, if someone openly admits they cheated, and lied. I beelive that person should be given the benifit of the doubt when they say they are no longer cheating and lying.

So when it comes to the case of Alex rodriguez or anyone who cheated while playing the game of baseball. I will personally say...so and so were cheaters....Alex was a cheater and a liar too but at least he admitted to it and stopped...

Just like when you're playing a video game, if you are a known cheater, and you come to me and say man im sorry, and show me that you no longer cheat, i can enjoy playing with you again.

no cheating style is worse or lighter then the other in my opinion

And I can respect that, but I view cheating as if it were breaking the law.

While there are different degrees, the person is always a cheater, and there is always a consequence. However, you are not going to give someone a 50 game ban for using a scoffed ball. Just like you won't allow a recently found out steroid user off with just a one game ban.

Different views for everyone, I guess.

[GSW]

Re: Is all cheating the same?

About parenting and kids on this issue. I look at it this way. Most kids who are talented enough to go into sports will have a rebellious streak to them but even if they're straight arrow kids there's the danger of preaching against something too much. It's like drugs and alcohol, parents preach against it but everybody has tried one or the other at least once in their lives.

An athlete will undoubtedly try some form of PEDs no matter how much the parents preach against it. It could be a one time thing (which is ok in my book because we all rebel at some point in our lives) but it could also lead to a behavior pattern of needing the PEDs.

Also, like it or not, a large percentage of kids that get into sports come from a tough or at the very least economically troublesome backgrounds and sports is an escape from what they've been through. Someone in that position will try damn near anything in order to make their dreams reality so that they can provide for their families and whatnot.

At this level i dont even think they consider it "cheating"

which is why its a grey area.

Why does taking something that will "ehnace my performance" mean that im cheating?

Why WOULDNT I do it if Kenny over here is doing it and im way better then him and we both know it, yet he can outlast me in practice and i've noticed he seems to be able to train harder and faster then I can?

The only logical reason is to say that there could be health risks inloved.

but liek you said, parents teach kids health risks of drugs, and they still do them anyway...

there is no honor in anything any more.

[JBH3]

Re: Is all cheating the same?

My issues w/ cheating, IN TERMS of ROIDS, stem from the ignorance that spews out about baseballs long history of cheating in different forms: scuffing a ball, corking a bat, etc.

And how this modern-day way of cheating isn't any different, and that it's not as bad as people think because cheating has always been in baseball in some form or another.

This is much MUCH more serious than that.

There was a NEED for Congress to get involved. Baseball wasn't going to do a thing unless their hand was forced.

If I'm a stockbroker, and all my subordinates are on speed to help them work longer hours than me, and I don't want to have to result to using speed to compete w/ my subordinates

- For obvious health reasons alone -

How can this be lumped into being no different than scuffing a ball?

Now the example I've given above doesn't even take into consideration the youth who become victims to using PEDs because they idolize Rodriguez, Clemens, Bonds, McGwire.

I wanted to try (& did) LSD when in highschool because Jim Morrison glorified it. It happens.

And yes...I was aware of the dangers, and my parents never condoned drugs.

Whether they like or not...Athletes/entertainers/etc owe a debt to society given the way kids look up to them.

[GSW]

Re: Is all cheating the same?

its no different because its still cheating...

It doesnt matter if your health will be adversaly affected.
It doesnt make it "worse"...you just choose to do a brand of cheating that could potential harm your body.

Im just saying both things are cheating.

SAME THING.

and on the kids issue, see my earlier post about parenting for my persoanl opinion.

[JBH3]

Re: Is all cheating the same?

its no different because its still cheating...

It doesnt matter if your health will be adversaly affected.
It doesnt make it "worse"...you just choose to do a brand of cheating that could potential harm your body.

Im just saying both things are cheating.

SAME THING.

and on the kids issue, see my earlier post about parenting for my persoanl opinion.

Yes...we understand its ALL cheating.

Its not so black and white after that.

When one form of cheating leaves you with ridicule, a tattered reputation, but generally healthy and no one a victim, its one thing. (ball scuffing, bat corking, altering equipment in any sort, and/or stealing signs etc.)

When another form of cheating can cause irrepreable damage to your body, all the other things mentioned directly above, and your use of a PED can influence others...

It's a completely different realm we've entered.

[MBMavs20]

Re: Is all cheating the same?

Yes, it is the parents, but sadly (my wife is a teacher) most parents will blame the teacher. When it is the parent that has raised the child who sees it ok to cheat.

If we're talking about highschool kids then they know full well <ENOUGH>the disadvantage, especially if they are considering college.

I am a teacher as well, so I know how your wife feels. There are many levels of cheating, as others have pointed out in this thread.

If someone cheats for personal gain, it's different than when a team cheats. What if the Kansas Jayhawks had an illegal player on the team last year? What if he was a starter who averaged 20 points? Or, what if it was the 12th man, who played 35 minutes the whole season? Both are cheating, but one effected the outcome, the other didn't.