Joe Morgan at his best

[snepp]

Re: Joe Morgan at his best

Not sure why he's a HOF'er. 2 Really good seasons and a ton of mediocrity. I think quite a few players fall into that category.

There is no possible way to defend this statement, it's blatantly asinine.

[fistofrage]

Re: Joe Morgan at his best

There is no possible way to defend this statement, it's blatantly asinine.

Really, then Why isn't Lou Whitaker in the HOF? Pretty much same stats, higher BA.

Alan Trammell another middle infielder with comparable stats.

Both of those were good major leaguers who played a long time and had a few exceptional years just like Morgan.

Jack Morris, multiple WS titles, winningest pitcher of the 1980's.

I'm just naming Tigers because thats who I'm most familiar with, but being a good player for many years and throwing in a few great seasons doesn't equate to HOF.

[JBH3]

Re: Joe Morgan at his best

Really, then Why isn't Lou Whitaker in the HOF? Pretty much same stats, higher BA.

Alan Trammell another middle infielder with comparable stats.

Both of those were good major leaguers who played a long time and had a few exceptional years just like Morgan.

Jack Morris, multiple WS titles, winningest pitcher of the 1980's.

I'm just naming Tigers because thats who I'm most familiar with, but being a good player for many years and throwing in a few great seasons doesn't equate to HOF.

689 career stolen bases by Joe Morgan. Are you kidding me?

Plus a higher career OPS+ then both the MIFers you state.

In 1976 Morgan posted a 1.020 OPS!

We know you hate the guy, but at least hate him rationally.

[snepp]

Re: Joe Morgan at his best

Really, then Why isn't Lou Whitaker in the HOF? Pretty much same stats, higher BA.

Alan Trammell another middle infielder with comparable stats.

Both of those were good major leaguers who played a long time and had a few exceptional years just like Morgan.

Jack Morris, multiple WS titles, winningest pitcher of the 1980's.

I'm just naming Tigers because thats who I'm most familiar with, but being a good player for many years and throwing in a few great seasons doesn't equate to HOF.

If you're going to making such a ridiculous claim you're going to have to do a whole lot better than that to support it.

[mgoblue678]

Re: Joe Morgan at his best

Actually Fists is 100% correct on this. Both Trammel and Whitaker have very comparable stats to Morgan except in the stolen bases and home run category in Trammel's case and should be in the Hall of Fame if he is. Actually both had better career batting averages than Morgan's .271 lifetime average. Whitaker at .276 and Trammel significantly better at .285. Total hits for their careers between the three are pretty comparable as well.

Morgan only had two years in his career where he hit over .300 just as Whitaker did. Actually Fist is 100% correct when he said Morgan only had two years that would be considered great by most people, 1975 and 1976. Trammel hit over .300 in 6 years. Trammel's best year in 1987 when he finished second in the MVP is very comparable to Morgan's best year.

Also defensively Whitaker and Trammel can match Morgan defensively as they are thought of by many as one the best double play combination's in league history. They won 7 gold gloves between them.

Not saying Morgan shouldn't be in but if he is both Whitaker and Trammel should probably be in as well.

Also Jack Morris while having a career ERA higher than most HOF's has a very good argument because of all of his wins and being a great big game pitcher.

[snepp]

Re: Joe Morgan at his best

Hurray for batting average! *sigh*

Morgan is easily one of the two or three best 2nd basemen in history. Whitaker and Trammell have nothing to do with this, other than an apparent bit of bias. They were excellent players, and it's a real shame Whitaker fell off the hall ballot so quickly (another injustice by ignorant writers), but they don't belong in Morgan's class.

OPS+
187
169
159
154
149
138
136
132
131
131
116
116
115
115
113
109
107
105
103

Fully half of his career was either a great season, or amazing one. The other half was either good or very good, even his "worst" seasons were excellent for his position. Career OPS+ of 132, for a 2nd basemen, that's nothing short of ridiculous. That doesn't account for his stolen bases or defensive ability either (not to mention OBP being improperly weighted in OPS).

Morgan also started his career in the lowest offensive environment since the deadball era (roughly 1/4 of his career), which hurt his counting numbers and slash stats a bit compared to others (like Whitaker and Trammell) who finished their careers in one of the highest.

Honestly, I can't believe something like this actually has to be defended. It's like saying Eddie Mathews really wasn't that good and basing it on absolutely nothing of substance.

[JBH3]

Re: Joe Morgan at his best

Hurray for batting average! *sigh*

Morgan is easily one of the two or three best 2nd basemen in history. Whitaker and Trammell have nothing to do with this, other than an apparent bit of bias. They were excellent players, and it's a real shame Whitaker fell off the hall ballot so quickly (another injustice by ignorant writers), but they don't belong in Morgan's class.

OPS+
187
169
159
154
149
138
136
132
131
131
116
116
115
115
113
109
107
105
103

Fully half of his career was either a great season, or amazing one. The other half was either good or very good, even his "worst" seasons were excellent for his position. Career OPS+ of 132, for a 2nd basemen, that's nothing short of ridiculous. That doesn't account for his stolen bases or defensive ability either (not to mention OBP being improperly weighted in OPS).

Morgan also started his career in the lowest offensive environment since the deadball era (roughly 1/4 of his career), which hurt his counting numbers and slash stats a bit compared to others (like Whitaker and Trammell) who finished their careers in one of the highest.

Honestly, I can't believe something like this actually has to be defended. It's like saying Eddie Mathews really wasn't that good and basing it on absolutely nothing of substance.

QFT

Ironic how the Trammel/Whitaker camp are Michigan football fans?!

On homerism from the outside looking in I must've drove you crazy in those Rollins MVP and like threads huh?

[snepp]

Re: Joe Morgan at his best

On homerism from the outside looking in I must've drove you crazy in those Rollins MVP and like threads huh?

And he was still a lousy MVP choice.

Speaking of Rollins, that .980 OPS since the start of July has to bring a big sigh of relief.

[JBH3]

Re: Joe Morgan at his best

And he was still a lousy MVP choice.

Speaking of Rollins, that .980 OPS since the start of July has to bring a big sigh of relief.

Definitely nice, his post all-star numbers have been great. We NEED him as he is the catalyst to our offense.

[mgoblue678]

Re: Joe Morgan at his best

QFT

Ironic how the Trammel/Whitaker camp are Michigan football fans?!

On homerism from the outside looking in I must've drove you crazy in those Rollins MVP and like threads huh?

Fist is a Michigan State fan, I am a Michigan fan. Could you not tell from the pictures underneath our names?

Last time I checked being a Michigan fan has nothing to do with baseball either. But I really do appreciate the back handed attempt at insulting Michigan fans.

Both Trammel and Whitaker have cases to be in HOF, that is not being homer. I never even saw Trammel and Whitaker play, all I can go by are the numbers which are comparable to alot of middle infielders in the HOF.

[tyler289]

Re: Joe Morgan at his best

Can we please get this back on topic?

Joe Morgan is an idiot.

[bsb13]

Re: Joe Morgan at his best

Joe Morgan is an idiot.

I wouldn't say that because I wouldn't want to insult idiots all around the world by including him in their group.

[Tomahawk]

Re: Joe Morgan at his best

An old site, but still has some classic stuff on it:

http://www.firejoemorgan.com/

[DrJones]

Re: Joe Morgan at his best

Trammel's best year in 1987 when he finished second in the MVP is very comparable to Morgan's best year.

In Morgan's best year, he led the NL in both on-base AND slugging percentage while stealing 60 bases and winning a gold glove. So, no.

There are definitely worthy arguments to be made for Trammell and Whitaker as Hall of Famers. Claiming that they were as good as Joe Morgan is not one of them.

[JBH3]

Re: Joe Morgan at his best

Fist is a Michigan State fan, I am a Michigan fan. Could you not tell from the pictures underneath our names?

Last time I checked being a Michigan fan has nothing to do with baseball either. But I really do appreciate the back handed attempt at insulting Michigan fans.

Both Trammel and Whitaker have cases to be in HOF, that is not being homer. I never even saw Trammel and Whitaker play, all I can go by are the numbers which are comparable to alot of middle infielders in the HOF.

Michigan football as in football played in the state of MICHIGAN. Sorry...I wasn't calling you a Spartan fan.

Being a Michigan fan has nothing to do w/ baseball, but living in the state of Michigan and rooting for the Tigers steers your opinion on who should, and should NOT be in, bias.

Since you think both those guys should be in over Morgan, while statistical evidence is staring you in the face proving otherwise. All we have are two fans of Michigan sports teams pulling for their guy ignoring the fact that their stats don't matchup.