Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

[WaitTilNextYear]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

I want to make sure I understand this then; your point of view is that baseball was "clean" and "pure" up until the steroid era?

Not really. I just think the Steroid Era was the most egregiously asymmetric era we've seen so far. It's likely that performance was altered in ways that we haven't seen before then.

[Sportsforever]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

Not really. I just think the Steroid Era was the most egregiously asymmetric era we've seen so far. It's likely that performance was altered in ways that we haven't seen before then.

Roger that...I am not in a position to say you're right or wrong, but I just wanted to make sure I understood your position. I have read many analyst who do assert that steroids did play a role, but am much smaller role in the numbers we saw. The attribute expansion (twice in the 1990's), aluminum bats at the college level, smaller ball parks when the wave of new parks hit in the 1990's, and yes, weight training. How much of a role steroids played it's hard to know, but I don't think it was the sole perpetrator.

[DieHardYankee26]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

To have the love and passion for the sport as to not degrade himself and therefore the sport itself.

Does anyone actually think he would do that?I mean we don't know anything for sure about any player because we don't follow them 24/7 but there's no viable proof or anything of substance to make a claim that he ever used PEDs anymore than Derek Jeter or anyone else for that matter.

I just don't buy into the notion that these guys hold their jobs in such high esteem that they wouldn't cheat. I feel like the people most likely to cheat are the people who are obsessed and passionate. I don't know who did steroids or not and have more or less trained myself not to care anymore, but I just don't think there's any real information to be drawn from how little we know about most of these guys. When A-Rod got busted, the monkey was out of the bottle for me. Don't know who's doing what and don't want to do the detective work of looking to see if Piazza has too many pimples on his back to find out.

I also have to ask: what integrity did Cal have for the game that Rickey didn't?

[gr18]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

I just don't buy into the notion that these guys hold their jobs in such high esteem that they wouldn't cheat. I feel like the people most likely to cheat are the people who are obsessed and passionate. I don't know who did steroids or not and have more or less trained myself not to care anymore, but I just don't think there's any real information to be drawn from how little we know about most of these guys. When A-Rod got busted, the monkey was out of the bottle for me. Don't know who's doing what and don't want to do the detective work of looking to see if Piazza has too many pimples on his back to find out.

I also have to ask: what integrity did Cal have for the game that Rickey didn't?

I guess you're right. Since I've never lived with Cal,Rickey or any other professional baseball player for that matter guys like Ripken,Jeter or Gwynn could be child molesters for all I know while Rickey may be the most saintly m'fer that ever walked the face of the earth. That gives me a whole new perspective. Thanks.

[TripleCrown9]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

Nailed it. That's EXACTLY what they're saying.

[Majingir]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

Something I never thought of before until watching the international feed of the ASG when they had an interview with Jack Morris...


Do you consider him a 3 or 4 time WS champ? He was on 3 WS teams, and would've been on the Jays 93 WS team if not for that injury in September. Officially he's listed as a 3 time champ, but he's been on 4 WS teams.

[ImTellinTim]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

He'd say 4 since he has 4 rings.


Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports

[DrJones]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

Jim Thome's career/narrative kinda fascinates me, because something doesn't add up.

- 612 HR all-time (along with .276 AVG and stellar .402 OBP)

- Pretty steady power #'s throughout his career (peaked a little later than the norm, but nothing outrageously out of line)

- Played in heart of steroid era, big as a house, yet virtually zero PED rumours

- Widely acknowledged to be a good guy and a great power hitter, but never really hit Top 10 (definitely not Top 5) in terms of star power or hype

This tells me at least one of these factors is in play:

1. Thome used PEDs at some point

2. Steroids don't/didn't help power numbers nearly as much as we think it does (if Thome hit 612 HR clean, would he have hit 650 on juice? 700+?)

3. Steroids don't/didn't help players with Thome's natural "country strong" physique nearly as much as they would with slighter players (although McGwire was pretty buff from the get-go, and he certainly benefited)

4. Thome is historically, perhaps criminally underrated. If he's clean and put up just as good or better numbers than known/suspected juicers, why isn't he lauded more? Why doesn't he have Ripken-level cred among fans and media?

For the record, I'm not endorsing any of these theories over the rest. It just seems weird to me that Thome elicits neither suspicion nor veneration. He's probably the least-talked about of all the HOF inductees this year.

Two random asides:

1. I met Thome once, and actually showed him how to play Triple Play 2000 HR Challenge for some EA/ESPN promotional nonsense at Fenway Park during All-Star Week in 1999. Super-nice guy. He was a last-second fill-in because our 1st choice (Nomar) was a big douche and wanted an insane amount of cash for a 15-minute gig. Now, did Thome's physique look any different to me than Jason Giambi's, who I met a year later? No: they were both ridiculously jacked. If someone had told me that one was a juicer and one wasn't, I would've said, "Okay...?" Perhaps there are telltale signs enabling trainers or weightlifters to tell the difference? Perhaps nothing other than testing can? No idea.

2. Ten years later, I was in Chicago at my first and only game at whatever Comiskey Park is called now, and Thome hit the longest home run I've ever seen live, a 442 ft bomb off Tomo Ohka to straightaway CF against the Indians. Sox won 8-5.

[dubcity]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

He just didn't have star power. He was a lunch pail type guy with a ton of power. He struck out a ton and was never a consistent high AVG. He might be underrated, but definitely not to a criminal level.

[SPTO]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

Interesting thoughts there. I think he played clean though probably took some stuff for recuperation. (in fact, i'm sure a lot of guys even to this day take whatever they can to handle the grind of the season.) He was always a pretty big guy and played very well throughout his career. He was just steady. In a lot of ways he's like Fred McGriff. No one has claimed he was on PEDs and he was a super nice guy in every way. He was also just a very steady hitter who didn't really have peaks and valleys in his career and that has hurt him getting into Cooperstown.

I think the guys who just play the game at a steady clip and don't make waves are the ones that are underrated in a huge way and it becomes a hindrance to them when it comes to the HOF voting and such.

[WaitTilNextYear]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

After reading that story my biggest question: is Tomo Ohka HoF worthy?

He played on the final Expos team and the original Nationals team. Spent time in Boston, Cleveland, Toronto, and Milwaukee so he's known all over the continent (except for the west coast, which doesn't matter, and the south). He pitched the first no hitter in AAA Pawtucket history in 1999, and then a 77-pitch perfect game for them in 2000. More strikeouts than walks, both as a pitcher and a batter. Double digit career WAR. Involved in a trade for Ugueth Urbina. Resurfaced in Japan as a knuckleballer before the Orioles signed him to a minor league contract before the 2017 season. Only has a 51-68 career record, but wins are a stat of the past. Most errors by a pitcher in 2006, but defense isn't really a thing for pitchers. Exactly 118 strikeouts in back-to-back seasons (2002 and 2003). And that number backwards is 811, or 8-11 if you prefer.

Does he have a case?

[DrJones]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

After reading that story my biggest question: is Tomo Ohka HoF worthy?

He played on the final Expos team and the original Nationals team. Spent time in Boston, Cleveland, Toronto, and Milwaukee so he's known all over the continent (except for the west coast, which doesn't matter, and the south). He pitched the first no hitter in AAA Pawtucket history in 1999, and then a 77-pitch perfect game for them in 2000. More strikeouts than walks, both as a pitcher and a batter. Double digit career WAR. Involved in a trade for Ugueth Urbina. Resurfaced in Japan as a knuckleballer before the Orioles signed him to a minor league contract before the 2017 season. Only has a 51-68 career record, but wins are a stat of the past. Most errors by a pitcher in 2006, but defense isn't really a thing for pitchers. Exactly 118 strikeouts in back-to-back seasons (2002 and 2003). And that number backwards is 811, or 8-11 if you prefer.

Does he have a case?

All that, and this too!

https://twitter.com/aria1exander/status/699354513367371778?lang=en

[DamnYanks2]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

Jim Thome's career/narrative kinda fascinates me, because something doesn't add up.

- 612 HR all-time (along with .276 AVG and stellar .402 OBP)

- Pretty steady power #'s throughout his career (peaked a little later than the norm, but nothing outrageously out of line)

- Played in heart of steroid era, big as a house, yet virtually zero PED rumours

- Widely acknowledged to be a good guy and a great power hitter, but never really hit Top 10 (definitely not Top 5) in terms of star power or hype

This tells me at least one of these factors is in play:

1. Thome used PEDs at some point

2. Steroids don't/didn't help power numbers nearly as much as we think it does (if Thome hit 612 HR clean, would he have hit 650 on juice? 700+?)

3. Steroids don't/didn't help players with Thome's natural "country strong" physique nearly as much as they would with slighter players (although McGwire was pretty buff from the get-go, and he certainly benefited)

4. Thome is historically, perhaps criminally underrated. If he's clean and put up just as good or better numbers than known/suspected juicers, why isn't he lauded more? Why doesn't he have Ripken-level cred among fans and media?

For the record, I'm not endorsing any of these theories over the rest. It just seems weird to me that Thome elicits neither suspicion nor veneration. He's probably the least-talked about of all the HOF inductees this year.

Two random asides:

1. I met Thome once, and actually showed him how to play Triple Play 2000 HR Challenge for some EA/ESPN promotional nonsense at Fenway Park during All-Star Week in 1999. Super-nice guy. He was a last-second fill-in because our 1st choice (Nomar) was a big douche and wanted an insane amount of cash for a 15-minute gig. Now, did Thome's physique look any different to me than Jason Giambi's, who I met a year later? No: they were both ridiculously jacked. If someone had told me that one was a juicer and one wasn't, I would've said, "Okay...?" Perhaps there are telltale signs enabling trainers or weightlifters to tell the difference? Perhaps nothing other than testing can? No idea.

2. Ten years later, I was in Chicago at my first and only game at whatever Comiskey Park is called now, and Thome hit the longest home run I've ever seen live, a 442 ft bomb off Tomo Ohka to straightaway CF against the Indians. Sox won 8-5.

I always loved watching Jim Thome. You always knew what you were getting from him. I'm glad he's in.

To answer your question.Thome just didn't have the star power like Mcgwire, Sosa, Junior, Bonds, Thomas Etc.. He was a 5 time all star. He never won an MVP. When you thought of "Thome " he just never screamed Elite.

When you think about it he wasn't even the best player on those stacked Indians teams. You couldn't say Thome was much better then Manny, Lofton, Alomar, Belle...

He just never had that label. By sabermetrics he was a poor fielder that makes him look even less stellar in the grand scheme of things. Baseball reference has his War at 72.9. Fangraphs has it at 68.9. Both are somewhat borderline hof numbers.

Maybe if he juiced he would have had much better numbers. That may truly be the case. But you have a guy that just didn't blow you away with his numbers in the "steroid era".

Anyway, one cool statistic I came across. Thome is the all time leader in walkoff homeruns with 13.

Here they are.

https://www.mlb.com/cut4/jim-thomes-mlb-record-13-walk-off-homers-ranked/c-287121288

Sent from my SM-J327VPP using Tapatalk

[SPTO]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

I don't know if anyone watched the preshow but Sean Casey rolled out the stats for Thome and boy....The guy is in Babe Ruth territory. Now i'm with Doc with wondering why this guy doesn't get talked up more.


BTW just before the preshow ended Harold Reynolds mentioned now that we're getting into the generation of players that today's stars grew up watching we may have to make HOF Sunday a dark day in MLB so that players can go to Cooperstown and see their heroes inducted. It would make it even more special of a day.

[TheMatrix31]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

I just love when they introduce the HOFers that are still with us and are able to attend. It's one of the coolest parts. So much history to remember.


It's criminal that there has to be an attention divide between actual games going on and this ceremony. The ceremony should be required viewing for anyone.