Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

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  • Chip Douglass
    Hall Of Fame
    • Dec 2005
    • 12256

    #1876
    Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

    Originally posted by CBoller1331
    That's my biggest issue with PED users. I mean Bonds' best stretch was 2001-2004 when he was 36-39. Clemens won the Cy Young at 34, 35, and 40 and had his lowest ERA of his career at 42. these guys were having second peaks when most guys their age are fighting to stay in the league
    There's little doubt it helped extend the careers of older guys who otherwise might have been out of the game, but as an all-encompassing explanation for the offensive boom of the late 90s-early 2000s, no, I don't buy it.

    2017 had a power surge that made the "steroid era" look like the deadball era by comparison (400+ more HRs than in 2000, the previous record for HRs in a season), yet no one seriously thinks PEDs were the cause. People have fingered the ball. Maybe the ball also played a role in the 90s offensive explosion, maybe it was the strike zone. Small changes in either can have a huge impact on offense.
    I write things on the Internet.

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    • Sportsforever
      NL MVP
      • Mar 2005
      • 20368

      #1877
      Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

      Originally posted by Chip Douglass
      There's little doubt it helped extend the careers of older guys who otherwise might have been out of the game, but as an all-encompassing explanation for the offensive boom of the late 90s-early 2000s, no, I don't buy it.

      2017 had a power surge that made the "steroid era" look like the deadball era by comparison (400+ more HRs than in 2000, the previous record for HRs in a season), yet no one seriously thinks PEDs were the cause. People have fingered the ball. Maybe the ball also played a role in the 90s offensive explosion, maybe it was the strike zone. Small changes in either can have a huge impact on offense.
      Attributing what we saw in the 1990's/early 2000's to PED's alone is lazy. The 1990's saw 4 teams added (every expansion year has seen offense jump), new ball parks replace older ones (and in each case, the new park favored the hitters compared to the older one), and Coors Field/Mile High were added to the mix. There were SO many factors that played into it...
      "People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring." - Rogers Hornsby

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      • KSUowls
        All Star
        • Jul 2009
        • 5893

        #1878
        Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

        There isn't any all-encompassing figure you can point to that caused the HR era of the 90's, or the influx of HR in today's game. There are multiple factors in either case which range from expansion, smaller ballparks, strike zones, launch angles, pitchers throwing harder, etc...

        It's not some novel idea though to connect some dots. PEDs make you stronger (why do athletes hit the weight room again?), they help you recover faster to stay in peak shape game to game, and to me the most telling fact I can point to which shows that PEDs really work is the drastic change in a player's peak years. You're supposed to lose muscle mass and generally decline as an athlete on the + side of 30. In steroid era age 36 became the new 26. Is it just a coincidence that we don't see wide spread instances of players getting better in their mid 30s anymore?

        I'm sure someone else has mentioned this, but the above scenario makes a lot of sense. Why can older players get by when they may not have all the raw ability they had as a younger player? It's because they are able to apply their experience of years in the game to know what the pitcher/hitter is going to do. Well, what if they suddenly had renewed strength/stamina to apply that experience to?
        Last edited by KSUowls; 08-14-2018, 01:56 PM.

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        • jake44np
          Post Like a Champion!
          • Jul 2002
          • 9563

          #1879
          Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

          Joey Votto, does he get in one day?

          Joey Votto has had a sparkling career with the Cincinnati Reds. Will it be worthy of the Hall of Fame?


          Joey Votto 1B, age 34
          Career: .313/.428/.541, 257 homers, 54.8 bWAR
          2017: .320/.454/.578, 36 homers, 7.5 bWAR
          Historical comp: Jason Giambi
          ND Season Ticket Holder since '72.

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          • WaitTilNextYear
            Go Cubs Go
            • Mar 2013
            • 16830

            #1880
            Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

            Originally posted by jake44np
            Joey Votto, does he get in one day?

            Joey Votto has had a sparkling career with the Cincinnati Reds. Will it be worthy of the Hall of Fame?


            Joey Votto 1B, age 34
            Career: .313/.428/.541, 257 homers, 54.8 bWAR
            2017: .320/.454/.578, 36 homers, 7.5 bWAR
            Historical comp: Jason Giambi
            Yup. Some would say he's done enough already. I'm kinda on the fence about that, but if he can give me 3 more All-Star caliber years I don't see why not.

            EDIT: There was some talk about Votto in this thread back in May of this year if you want to read it.
            Last edited by WaitTilNextYear; 08-14-2018, 06:41 PM.
            Chicago Cubs | Chicago Bulls | Green Bay Packers | Michigan Wolverines

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            • DamnYanks2
              Hall Of Fame
              • Jun 2007
              • 20794

              #1881
              Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

              Votto is one of the best pure hitters I've ever seen. I think he will age really well with the bat too. I think he's going to be a lock for the hof.

              Sent from my SM-J327VPP using Tapatalk
              Last edited by DamnYanks2; 08-15-2018, 10:50 AM.

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              • WaitTilNextYear
                Go Cubs Go
                • Mar 2013
                • 16830

                #1882
                Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

                What about Zack Greinke?
                Chicago Cubs | Chicago Bulls | Green Bay Packers | Michigan Wolverines

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                • Chip Douglass
                  Hall Of Fame
                  • Dec 2005
                  • 12256

                  #1883
                  Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

                  Votto and Greinke both have a ways to go still. Votto probably has a better shot though because the bar is lower for position players.
                  I write things on the Internet.

                  Comment

                  • DamnYanks2
                    Hall Of Fame
                    • Jun 2007
                    • 20794

                    #1884
                    Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

                    Originally posted by WaitTilNextYear
                    What about Zack Greinke?
                    Yes.

                    Sent from my SM-J327VPP using Tapatalk

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                    • Chip Douglass
                      Hall Of Fame
                      • Dec 2005
                      • 12256

                      #1885
                      Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

                      Originally posted by DrJones
                      Some... interesting PED takes in this thread.
                      I'm not completely apathetic to PED use. I think guys who knowingly broke the rules should be penalized. I probably wouldn't vote for borderline candidates like Sosa who used.

                      But the moral sermonizing over steroids was ludicrously overwrought; lots of huffy pontificating about The Sanctity of The Game even though amphetamine use was widespread in the 70s and 80s and players threw the World Series in the deadball era. Yeah, I do think future generations of baseball fans will find that bizarre.
                      I write things on the Internet.

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                      • Sportsforever
                        NL MVP
                        • Mar 2005
                        • 20368

                        #1886
                        Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

                        Originally posted by Chip Douglass
                        I'm not completely apathetic to PED use. I think guys who knowingly broke the rules should be penalized. I probably wouldn't vote for borderline candidates like Sosa who used.

                        But the moral sermonizing over steroids was ludicrously overwrought; lots of huffy pontificating about The Sanctity of The Game even though amphetamine use was widespread in the 70s and 80s and players threw the World Series in the deadball era. Yeah, I do think future generations of baseball fans will find that bizarre.
                        This is where I'm at. I don't want to turn a blind eye to guys doing steroids and say "meh, it's no big deal". That said, I found the self righteous pontificating to be just as, if not worse, than the actual offense, particularly given the history of this great game. I can easily say a player like Bonds or Clemens is in; I saw them play and there is no doubt in my mind (in fact, I think Bonds may be the best player to ever play). Players like Canseco, Sosa and Palmiero are easy for me to dismiss since they weren't HOF players and then "transformed" into something else. The type of player I struggle with is a player like Alex Rodriguez. I have no idea when he started and how much of his career was legit.

                        Finally, I feel for players who never did PED's (as far as we know) and won't see the HOF because their numbers don't measure up to contemporaries (I'm looking at you, Fred McGriff).
                        "People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring." - Rogers Hornsby

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                        • ubernoob
                          ****
                          • Jul 2004
                          • 15522

                          #1887
                          Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

                          Hilarious to hear people think that players with PED usage should be punished while the same ****ty voting system that has nothing to do with production/performance is in place.

                          **** the baseball writers.

                          Also, it's not anyone's job to police PED usage in the HOF. Either they get in or they don't. If they fail tests, their punishment is their (escalating) suspension. Miss enough time, you don't get the numbers.

                          The BBHOF is a ****ing joke anyways though.
                          bad

                          Comment

                          • TripleCrown9
                            Keep the Faith
                            • May 2010
                            • 23706

                            #1888
                            Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

                            Here's one I saw discussed on Twitter, could've been said in here before as well.

                            What about Joe Mauer?
                            Boston Red Sox
                            1903 1912 1915 1916 1918 2004 2007 2013 2018
                            9 4 1 8 27 6 14 45 26 34

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                            • WaitTilNextYear
                              Go Cubs Go
                              • Mar 2013
                              • 16830

                              #1889
                              Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

                              Originally posted by TripleCrown9
                              Here's one I saw discussed on Twitter, could've been said in here before as well.

                              What about Joe Mauer?
                              Mauer's not in for me. I am a bit of a smaller hall type anyway, but he's been playing out the string for the past 5 years. He hasn't done anything really since 2013. He needed more 2009's on his resume imo.
                              Chicago Cubs | Chicago Bulls | Green Bay Packers | Michigan Wolverines

                              Comment

                              • Speedy
                                #Ace
                                • Apr 2008
                                • 16143

                                #1890
                                Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

                                Originally posted by TripleCrown9
                                Here's one I saw discussed on Twitter, could've been said in here before as well.

                                What about Joe Mauer?
                                I always considered Yadi to eventually get in the HOF but Mauer's fWAR is 11 more than Yadi in almost the same number of games.

                                Granted, Mauer has almost as many games at 1B/DH as he does at catcher.

                                Sent from my SM-G950U using Operation Sports mobile app
                                Originally posted by Gibson88
                                Anyone who asked for an ETA is not being Master of their Domain.
                                It's hard though...especially when I got my neighbor playing their franchise across the street...maybe I will occupy myself with Glamore Magazine.

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