Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

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  • AC
    Win the East
    • Sep 2010
    • 14951

    #346
    Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

    When you look at wRC+...

    http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.asp...rs=0&sort=18,d

    Helton is ranked 42nd.

    And from the hyperlinked article:

    If you’re thinking about using OPS+, use wRC+ instead. wRC+ is based off of wOBA and is regarded as a more accurate depiction of a player’s offensive value.
    "Twelve at-bats is a pretty decent sample size." - Eric Byrnes

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    • DamnYanks2
      Hall Of Fame
      • Jun 2007
      • 20794

      #347
      Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

      Originally posted by ACMilan99
      When you look at wRC+...

      http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.asp...rs=0&sort=18,d

      Helton is ranked 42nd.

      And from the hyperlinked article:
      I don't feel like the company that he is in, represents the kind of player he was. He is hell of alot better then Pedro Guerrero and John Kruk. And even going by those numbers 33% better then league average is still impressive.

      I don't feel like sabrmetrics tell all, I believe in them, but we can all agree that Helton was alot better then the company displayed on that chart.
      Last edited by DamnYanks2; 07-21-2013, 07:30 PM.

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      • AC
        Win the East
        • Sep 2010
        • 14951

        #348
        Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

        Sure, but there are quite a few players on that list he isn't better than. Enough that he still certainly doesn't get my HOF vote.
        "Twelve at-bats is a pretty decent sample size." - Eric Byrnes

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        • G3no_11
          MVP
          • Oct 2012
          • 1110

          #349
          Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

          So wRC+ is your deciding factor for the HoF? lol

          I feel like a lot of the people who are saying absolutely not, are choosing to look past his overall career and instead just point out a thing here and there to say no to.
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          • AC
            Win the East
            • Sep 2010
            • 14951

            #350
            Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

            Originally posted by G3no_11
            So wRC+ is your deciding factor for the HoF? lol
            And "I've watched him for 15 years while ignoring Coors effects and calling 20 point differences close" is a great deciding factor lmao.

            E: And no, I'm not ignoring his career, rather the opposite; I'm citing an extremely useful statistic based on his entire career.


            Question: can you seriously not sort by position on baseball reference? I'd be interested in seeing where Helton ranks all time in OPS+. Probably wouldn't change my opinion much but I'm curious and can't figure out how the heck to sort lol.
            Last edited by AC; 07-21-2013, 07:49 PM.
            "Twelve at-bats is a pretty decent sample size." - Eric Byrnes

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            • G3no_11
              MVP
              • Oct 2012
              • 1110

              #351
              Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

              Originally posted by ACMilan99
              And "I've watched him for 15 years while ignoring Coors effects and calling 20 point differences close" is a great deciding factor lmao
              haha, that's not a deciding factor for me. If it is for HOF voters that'd be great!

              No reason to put words in my mouth. I have given numerous reasons on why I think he deserves to get in. Just because I said I have watched him throughout his career you're going to hold that against my points made? Ignoring the Coors effect, when did I ever do that? I've said his home splits are insane, as for the point differential, he was in the ballpark with a couple of the players on the list and that ballpark is less than 15 points.
              Last edited by G3no_11; 07-21-2013, 07:58 PM.
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              • DamnYanks2
                Hall Of Fame
                • Jun 2007
                • 20794

                #352
                Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

                Originally posted by ACMilan99
                Sure, but there are quite a few players on that list he isn't better than. Enough that he still certainly doesn't get my HOF vote.
                Well, he's not a slam dunk for me. But, I think he has enough on his resume to get him there.

                Notable 1B men in Helton's era
                Pujols Lock
                BagwellLock
                Thomas(if we are counting him)Lock
                Helton Fringe candidate

                That's how I look at it.

                Comment

                • WaitTilNextYear
                  Go Cubs Go
                  • Mar 2013
                  • 16830

                  #353
                  Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

                  Originally posted by G3no_11
                  He's fairly close to all of them except Pujols. Again.. I just don't see why the large drop of in his home/road splits would be that much of an issue. He is in the ballpark comparing with HoF hitters on the road...... so because he happens to blow all of them out of the water with his home splits he's not getting in?

                  It doesn't make sense.. he was still a HoF caliber hitter on the road.

                  I still strongly disagree with this "so so" defense talk. He won 3 Gold Gloves and easily could've won more.
                  Gold Gloves (especially at 1B) are NOT really a defensive accomplishment. At best, it's an overall accomplishment but usually boils down to who has the best hitting stats but sucks the least obviously at his position. At SS, it would be different...

                  IMO, does Helton get in? No. The Park and Steroid Era will work against him. Unless the voters are certain he's clean, they might just vote him in to "clean up the hall."

                  Does he deserve in? Tough call. His peak was pretty amazing, if short. 2000-2004, he had an OPS of over 1.000 every year. More career walks (1321) than K's (1123), which is a big deal to me. He also has a "normal" decline curve, meaning he hit 30-32 y/o and got worse, not better, lol.

                  He also never won MVP, relatively short peak hurts his WAR big time, didn't really stand out in the playoffs.

                  BUT, what cinches him not deserving to be in for me is that his OPS is 200 points higher at Coors, a lot of that coming pre-humidor.

                  I think the fact he was at 1B, was a good but not excellent player away from Coors, and only had a 5-year peak (5 AS selections is not enough for HoF) condemn him to the hall of the very good.
                  Last edited by WaitTilNextYear; 07-21-2013, 08:06 PM.
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                  • Sportsforever
                    NL MVP
                    • Mar 2005
                    • 20368

                    #354
                    Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

                    Honestly, and I may get shouted down for this, but I'd take Fred McGriff in the HOF before I'd take Helton.
                    "People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring." - Rogers Hornsby

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                    • WaitTilNextYear
                      Go Cubs Go
                      • Mar 2013
                      • 16830

                      #355
                      Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

                      Originally posted by ACMilan99
                      And "I've watched him for 15 years while ignoring Coors effects and calling 20 point differences close" is a great deciding factor lmao.

                      E: And no, I'm not ignoring his career, rather the opposite; I'm citing an extremely useful statistic based on his entire career.


                      Question: can you seriously not sort by position on baseball reference? I'd be interested in seeing where Helton ranks all time in OPS+. Probably wouldn't change my opinion much but I'm curious and can't figure out how the heck to sort lol.
                      Looks complicated, but try this if you're up to it:

                      http://www.baseball-reference.com/pl...cgi?type=b&id=


                      Originally posted by DamnYanks2
                      Well, he's not a slam dunk for me. But, I think he has enough on his resume to get him there.

                      Notable 1B men in Helton's era
                      Pujols Lock
                      BagwellLock
                      Thomas(if we are counting him)Lock
                      Helton Fringe candidate

                      That's how I look at it.
                      That's a fair assessment.
                      Chicago Cubs | Chicago Bulls | Green Bay Packers | Michigan Wolverines

                      Comment

                      • G3no_11
                        MVP
                        • Oct 2012
                        • 1110

                        #356
                        Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

                        Originally posted by WaitTilNextYear
                        Gold Gloves (especially at 1B) are NOT really a defensive accomplishment. At best, it's an overall accomplishment but usually boils down to who has the best hitting stats but sucks the least obviously at his position. At SS, it would be different...

                        I think the fact he was at 1B, was good and not excellent player away from Coors, and only had a 5-year peak (5 AS selections is not enough for HoF) condemn him to the hall of the very good.
                        Gold Gloves really don't mean anything to me, I was just trying to put it into context that he was, at the very least, an above average 1B. I feel the same way about AS selections. They don't mean much to me at all. Snubs happen all the time, every year, and the fact that Helton played in Colorado.. he's pretty prone to getting snubbed due to the poor publicity. Same with MVP really... obviously it is a big deal to win the MVP, but he played for a pretty bad Colorado team for his career... he didn't have a chance at an MVP. Even when the Rockies made that crazy run in '07.. Matt Holliday had MVP numbers but lost to Rollins. Kind of the same with Tulo and Braun for ROY in '07. (man I bet the MLB wishes Tulo won that award now haha)

                        I also wonder how the steroid era will effect him. Biggio didn't get in and I figured he would be a solid lock. Maybe that was just to prove a point or something, but I think it could also help Helton. The fact that he put up pretty insane numbers during the steroid era and was never linked, could help him.
                        Last edited by G3no_11; 07-21-2013, 08:18 PM.
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                        • ubernoob
                          ****
                          • Jul 2004
                          • 15522

                          #357
                          His counting stats that you listed for inclusion are just the result of a long career with no injuries.

                          Would you put a first baseman in the Hall of Fame that averaged 75 RBI from 2002-now (not including this year, of course?)

                          He had a peak of 2 years (like yourself I don't give much weight to ASG and Gold Gloves/Silver Sluggers.). I also think that the saber crowd relies a bit too much on those stats but even more than that, I just don't think he's good enough for the Hall of Fame. I also think you'd be hard-pressed to find people, outside of Rox fans, that feel he should get in.
                          bad

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                          • 55
                            Banned
                            • Mar 2006
                            • 20857

                            #358
                            Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

                            For me, Helton was a fantastic player for about 5 years and then a below average one (for his position) for about 10 years. He has been the definition of mediocre for a long time now.

                            His career averages are 21 HR and 81 RBI per season. Those are NOT HoF caliber numbers for a first basemen.

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                            • AC
                              Win the East
                              • Sep 2010
                              • 14951

                              #359
                              Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

                              Originally posted by Sportsforever
                              Honestly, and I may get shouted down for this, but I'd take Fred McGriff in the HOF before I'd take Helton.
                              +1. So would I, honestly.

                              Originally posted by WaitTilNextYear
                              Looks complicated, but try this if you're up to it:

                              http://www.baseball-reference.com/pl...cgi?type=b&id=

                              That's a fair assessment.
                              Spoiler
                              "Twelve at-bats is a pretty decent sample size." - Eric Byrnes

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                              • G3no_11
                                MVP
                                • Oct 2012
                                • 1110

                                #360
                                Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

                                What do you guys think about Biggio?
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