Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

[DrJones]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

Biggio's Hall of Fame candidacy comes down to positional value. As a 1B/LF/DH, his numbers aren't good enough for Cooperstown. As a 2B, they are.

[Brandon13]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

Craig Biggio was not a Hall of Fame caliber player.

Yep.

A "Hall of the Very Good" player, but never did I consider him to be a great player.

But he was very consistent for a long time, so at least it wasn't egregious.

[AC]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

I think Biggio is a fringe guy. I think there were better candidates but in isolation I'm not up in arms over it.

[55]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

I have no issue with Biggio getting in, but it does make Lou Whitaker's one-and-done from the ballot a little tougher to swallow.

Also, I'm absolutely stunned that Smoltz got in on his first year of eligibility and got nearly as many votes as Pedro did. Pedro pitched circles around him and it wasn't even close. Schilling didn't even receive half the votes that Smoltz did and that's ridiculous. Schilling was also clearly better at pretty much every aspect of pitching. It's not that I hate Smoltz or even deny that he was a really good pitcher or anything, I just don't think he should have gotten in on his first ballot when there are guys clearly better than him on the outside looking in.

Still, without Bonds and Clemens the whole thing is just a sham anyway.

[WaitTilNextYear]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

Took him 20 years to reach 3000 career hits. Biggio was a very good player, not great. Never did I ever see him play and think "this guy is a game changer". Again, very good player, just not Hall of Fame quality in my opinion.

I disagree. I think Biggio was a HoFer for sure. I'm more disappointed with guys down ballot like Carlos Delgado not even getting a 2nd year. Sheffield and Mussina were both way too low as well. I wonder if all the voters know they get 10 spots to maybe...use?

[WaitTilNextYear]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

Totally agree on Bonds and Clemens as well. Without those guys, the Hall isn't more prestigious, but less so. Nobody can deny they were two of the greatest to ever do it, and would have almost certainly been so with or without the secret sauce. I can fathom keeping Big Mac and Slammin' Sammy out as they were more one dimensional.

And while we're at it, let Pete Rose and Shoeless Joe in already. It's not the Hall of Morality. Or, at least, it shouldn't pretend to be.

[Sportsforever]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

I have no issue with Biggio getting in, but it does make Lou Whitaker's one-and-done from the ballot a little tougher to swallow.

Also, I'm absolutely stunned that Smoltz got in on his first year of eligibility and got nearly as many votes as Pedro did. Pedro pitched circles around him and it wasn't even close. Schilling didn't even receive half the votes that Smoltz did and that's ridiculous. Schilling was also clearly better at pretty much every aspect of pitching. It's not that I hate Smoltz or even deny that he was a really good pitcher or anything, I just don't think he should have gotten in on his first ballot when there are guys clearly better than him on the outside looking in.

Still, without Bonds and Clemens the whole thing is just a sham anyway.

I'm a big Schilling fan….loved watching him pitch and think he's a HOF'r. That said, I don't get your comment about Schilling being better than Smoltz in pretty much every aspect? They have nearly IDENTICAL career numbers in every category you can look at (rate and counting) AND Smoltz has the closer numbers and won a CY. They were both ridiculous in the post-season to boot. I can't find one thing that Schilling did better than Smoltz...

[55]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

I'm a big Schilling fan….loved watching him pitch and think he's a HOF'r. That said, I don't get your comment about Schilling being better than Smoltz in pretty much every aspect? They have nearly IDENTICAL career numbers in every category you can look at (rate and counting) AND Smoltz has the closer numbers and won a CY. They were both ridiculous in the post-season to boot. I can't find one thing that Schilling did better than Smoltz...

Schilling had a better WHIP, K/9, BB/9, K/BB and has him smashed in WAR. Smoltz's three years in the pen inflated those rate stats too. Take those bullpen numbers away (I know that sounds silly, but humor me) and they're even further apart. In any event, neither one of the two are first ballot guys (definitely not while Clemens is sitting at home twiddling his thumbs) but both deserve to be in at some point. It's crazy to me that just because one of them is a total jerk in their personal life and the other is only half a jerk, that the former only gets half the votes.

[SPTO]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

Also, I'm absolutely stunned that Smoltz got in on his first year of eligibility and got nearly as many votes as Pedro did. Pedro pitched circles around him and it wasn't even close. Schilling didn't even receive half the votes that Smoltz did and that's ridiculous. Schilling was also clearly better at pretty much every aspect of pitching. It's not that I hate Smoltz or even deny that he was a really good pitcher or anything, I just don't think he should have gotten in on his first ballot when there are guys clearly better than him on the outside looking in.

IIRC Schilling's vote totals went up this year and with the backlog being lessened a bit I could see him having a very good shot of getting in in the next few years.

[ThreeKing]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

So when it's Jeter turn, does he score 100% of the vote, or will there be some jagbag who goes against the grain just to spark controversy??

[kehlis]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

So when it's Jeter turn, does he score 100% of the vote, or will there be some jagbag who goes against the grain just to spark controversy??

Yes.

There are writers who believe no one should be first ballot hall of famer.

[Sportsforever]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

Schilling had a better WHIP, K/9, BB/9, K/BB and has him smashed in WAR. Smoltz's three years in the pen inflated those rate stats too. Take those bullpen numbers away (I know that sounds silly, but humor me) and they're even further apart. In any event, neither one of the two are first ballot guys (definitely not while Clemens is sitting at home twiddling his thumbs) but both deserve to be in at some point. It's crazy to me that just because one of them is a total jerk in their personal life and the other is only half a jerk, that the former only gets half the votes.

I agree that personality/the way they treated the writers shouldn't play any part in it, but the differences in their rate stats (K/BB/H) are so negligible that I can't consider them 'different'. Smoltz's stats actually aren't that affected by his time as a closer because his IP were so low. For example, his K/9 as a starter vs closer in his career: 8.0 to 9.8. His overall career K/9: 8.0, mainly because he had 3150 IP as a starter and 250 as a closer.

If anything, Smoltz's time hurt his total WAR (he had 7 total WAR as a closer over 4 years at a time in his career when he had been putting up 5 WAR/year as a starter). If he was a full-time starter he would have most likely outpaced Schilling's WAR.

Anyway…I agree they are both HOF'rs, but I always viewed them as the same pitcher for the most part. They both adjusted and got better with age (Smoltz was better longer while Schilling was more dominant for a shorter period), but overall the same pitcher. Interestingly enough, Smoltz #1 player in the similarity scores: Curt Schilling.

[Sportsforever]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

So when it's Jeter turn, does he score 100% of the vote, or will there be some jagbag who goes against the grain just to spark controversy??

Wait…Jeter's a HOF'r?

Spoiler

I kid…I kid

[RyanLaFalce]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

Wait…Jeter's a HOF'r?

Spoiler

I kid…I kid

He might be

Sent From My Galaxy S7

[WaitTilNextYear]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

So when it's Jeter turn, does he score 100% of the vote, or will there be some jagbag who goes against the grain just to spark controversy??

Jeter will be well over 90% on the 1st ballot for sure, but there's no chance it's unanimous. I really doubt he touches Randy Johnson's 97.3% even, not that it really matters, let alone hits 100%. There are legitimate reasons to vote against Jeter (defense and such), but just not many of them.