Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

[TripleCrown9]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

Ortiz is a great hitter; Martinez might be one of the 30 greatest hitters in the history of baseball.

Fixed that for you.

[Speedy]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

Other than the 163 fewer homers, 288 fewer RBI's, and 3 fewer World Series rings, I completely agree.

EDIT: Also what Chip said.


Meanwhile Edgar has a 66 WAR over 17 seasons while Papi's WAR is 43 over 19 now.

Edgar's slash line: .312/.418/.515
Ortiz's slash line: .284/.379/.544

One other thing to look at:

BB%: 14.8% vs. 13.1%
K%: 13.9% vs. 17.7%
RAR (runs above replacement): 664 vs 433


Ortiz did hit more HRs but I don't buy into the RBIs. Unfortunately, line drive data wasn't available until 2002 but I'm certain Edgar would likely beat Papi by about 2-3% there also. I mean, MLB even renamed the Most Outstanding DH award the Edgar Martinez Award.

I concede Papi is a big time clutch player; without him, BOS would not have the 3 WS rings. However, by no means is he a better player or more "hall worthy" than Edgar to me.

[ImTellinTim]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

Other than baseball card counting stats and team accomplishments, the two aren't really in the same tier.

<iframe src="http://www.fangraphs.com/graphframe.aspx?config=0&static=0&type=graphsw&num =2&h=450&w=450&players=1086,745" scrolling="no" style="border:1px solid black;" frameborder="0" height="450" width="450"></iframe>
Source: FanGraphs -- David Ortiz, Edgar Martinez

Ortiz was a great hitter; Martinez might be one of the 30 greatest hitters in the history of baseball.

That graph is fun because you can see where Ortiz probably stopped taking PEDs.

*runs from thread*

[redsox4evur]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

That graph is fun because you can see where Ortiz probably stopped taking PEDs.

*runs from thread*

Wait when did he stop??? I thought he was still doing them to this day but was smart about it.

[Chip Douglass]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

Fixed that for you.

Ortiz has been a league-average hitter so far and is 39 years old.

I think it's fair to say that his days of being a great hitter are over.

[Chip Douglass]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

EDIT: Also what Chip said.


Meanwhile Edgar has a 66 WAR over 17 seasons while Papi's WAR is 43 over 19 now.

Edgar's slash line: .312/.418/.515
Ortiz's slash line: .284/.379/.544

One other thing to look at:

BB%: 14.8% vs. 13.1%
K%: 13.9% vs. 17.7%
RAR (runs above replacement): 664 vs 433


Ortiz did hit more HRs but I don't buy into the RBIs. Unfortunately, line drive data wasn't available until 2002 but I'm certain Edgar would likely beat Papi by about 2-3% there also. I mean, MLB even renamed the Most Outstanding DH award the Edgar Martinez Award.

I concede Papi is a big time clutch player; without him, BOS would not have the 3 WS rings. However, by no means is he a better player or more "hall worthy" than Edgar to me.

Yeah, I was going to post the relevant hitting numbers, but the WAR graph works because it's basically a one-for-one representation of hitting ability since both are DHs with a similar number of PAs.

Ortiz had more pop in his bat, but Martinez had super-elite contact skills (as seen by his high BABIP and low K%) and drew more walks.

All-in-all:

Martinez career wRC+: 147
Ortiz career wRC+: 138

That gap will probably grow a bit too as Ortiz finally bottoms out and doesn't keep confounding the aging curve model.

[Godgers12]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

Its criminal Edgar isn't in the HOF. He is one of 5 players ever with 300 HR, 1000 RBI, 500 doubles, 1000 walks, 2000 hits, and a .400 OBP. The other 4 are in the hall.

[55]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

Its criminal Edgar isn't in the HOF. He is one of 5 players ever with 300 HR, 1000 RBI, 500 doubles, 1000 walks, 2000 hits, and a .400 OBP. The other 4 are in the hall.

No. Bonds also meets all of those criteria and he isn't in the HoF. Pujols also meets them, although he obviously don't qualify for the HoF yet.

The four men in the HoF that meet those criteria are:

Babe Ruth
Ted Williams
Lou Gehrig
Stan Musial

Martinez was a great hitter, no doubt about it. Be damn sure doesn't stack up to any of those guys though and it's not even close. Bonds and Pujols as well. Those six guys are all pretty much top ten offensive players of all-time and Edgar is far below them. Just because he meets some arbitrary mark that somebody figured out doesn't mean he's in the same class as the other guys that meet it and, in pretty much all of their cases, shatter at least 3 of those arbitrary marks.

[Speedy]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

I'm ok with Barry not being in the hall.

[55]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

I'm ok with Barry not being in the hall.

Unless you are 80 years old (or older) Bonds is the best baseball player you have seen in your life.

[redsox4evur]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

Unless you are 80 years old (or older) Bonds is the best baseball player you have seen in your life.

Yep, I could care less that he used steroids. The Steroid Era is the latest "era" in baseball.

[55]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

Yep, I could care less that he used steroids. The Steroid Era is the latest "era" in baseball.

Considering that:

A) The HoF is already full of guys who used greenies, doctored baseballs, gambled on games, etc.

and...

B) Plenty of the pitchers (along with hitters) Bonds faced during his era were just as juiced up. The reason it wasn't obvious that most of the other guys that did them was that the talent level was nowhere near what Bonds' was before juicing.

Keeping a guy out of the HoF because of steroids/HGH is laughable.

[redsox4evur]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

Considering that:

A) The HoF is already full of guys who used greenies, doctored baseballs, gambled on games, etc.

and...

B) Plenty of the pitchers (along with hitters) Bonds faced during his era were just as juiced up. The reason it wasn't obvious that most of the other guys that did them was that the talent level was nowhere near what Bonds' was before juicing.

Keeping a guy out of the HoF because of steroids/HGH is laughable.

Yep. I mean you can link Pedro to steroids. I can't say if he used or not but he can be linked to them. His trainer in like 2001 was suspended from baseball because of something to do with steroids. And he was a first ballot HOFer.

[TheMatrix31]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

I mean, there have been all-time greats consistently throughout the years baseball has existed but it's pretty amazing that, say, since 1990, we've had Bonds, Griffey, Rodriguez, Pujols, Cabrera, Trout, Pedro, Maddux, Clemens, Unit, and so many others.

We've been incredibly lucky there hasn't been any "down time" as far as the generational talents go.

Eh, I guess it's the same across all sports. Consistently multiple all-time players at the same time.

[redsox4evur]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

I mean, there have been all-time greats consistently throughout the years baseball has existed but it's pretty amazing that, say, since 1990, we've had Bonds, Griffey, Rodriguez, Pujols, Cabrera, Trout, Pedro, Maddux, Clemens, Unit, and so many others.

We've been incredibly lucky there hasn't been any "down time" as far as the generational talents go.

Yea and it doesn't seem to be stopping soon either. With Harper, Bryant and Gallo.