Brian Giles to Angels??

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  • griffy97
    *t's * 'B*rgh Th*ng!
    • May 2003
    • 364

    #16
    Re: Brian Giles to Angels??

    </font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
    Karlos05 said:
    I dont like this deal one bit........ Something about this, I definatly like the one with San Diego better.

    <hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

    Karlos, I know you know your Pirates very well.

    What don't you like about it?

    Comment

    • Dav
      Rookie
      • Feb 2003
      • 386

      #17
      Re: Brian Giles to Angels??

      NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!! !

      Can't trade away anybody, they have been here too long.

      Comment

      • Dav
        Rookie
        • Feb 2003
        • 386

        #18
        Re: Brian Giles to Angels??

        NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!! !

        Can't trade away anybody, they have been here too long.

        Comment

        • Dav
          Rookie
          • Feb 2003
          • 386

          #19
          Re: Brian Giles to Angels??

          NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!! !

          Can't trade away anybody, they have been here too long.

          Comment

          • Karlos05
            -
            • Mar 2003
            • 5814

            #20
            Re: Brian Giles to Angels??

            </font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
            griffy97 said:
            </font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
            Karlos05 said:
            I dont like this deal one bit........ Something about this, I definatly like the one with San Diego better.

            <hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

            Karlos, I know you know your Pirates very well.

            What don't you like about it?

            <hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

            To me it just seems like TOO much of a salary dump. I know the Pirates are in money problems and need to seriously cut back to stop the bleeding. The best way to build a competitive team with bleeding money out of the nose is to build it from the ground up, with your prospects and young players.

            In all of the proposed San Diego deal the Pirates were getting young prospects from the Padres with the exception of Jarvis who would be traded for money purposes. Xavier Nady is only 25, Oliver Perez is only 22, and the minor leaguer Jason Bay is 25 as well. Kevin Jarvis is 34 but again he would only be traded for money purposes. All of these players fit the mold for players that the Pirates need in order to start rebuilding.

            As for the player in the Angels deal Aaron Sele is 33, Bengie Molina is 29 and Erstad is also 29. These are older players and not what the Pirates need now. Yes the Pirates could use a few vetrens to help the younger players learn the ins and outs of baseball, but I dont think these are the players to do that. I think Matt Stairs could do a great job of doing that aif he were to be resigned for next year.

            It may be just me but this feels like just way too much of a slary dump. The Pirates get a good outfielder with injury problems, a decent catcher and an old pitcher for some really good player. Brian Giles is the epitome of underrated superstar, Kendal huge contract and all is still a solid catcher, and Benson a number 1 draft pick who has shown flashes of being great but mechanics trouble led to a bad year. I think the players that the Angles are offering are good players, just not the ones that the Pirates need right now, even though this would be a great oppertunity to unload some large contracts that the Pirates have. If I were the Pirates I would just wait till the offseason and see what the Padres do and possibly trade for some talented youth.

            Comment

            • Karlos05
              -
              • Mar 2003
              • 5814

              #21
              Re: Brian Giles to Angels??

              </font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
              griffy97 said:
              </font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
              Karlos05 said:
              I dont like this deal one bit........ Something about this, I definatly like the one with San Diego better.

              <hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

              Karlos, I know you know your Pirates very well.

              What don't you like about it?

              <hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

              To me it just seems like TOO much of a salary dump. I know the Pirates are in money problems and need to seriously cut back to stop the bleeding. The best way to build a competitive team with bleeding money out of the nose is to build it from the ground up, with your prospects and young players.

              In all of the proposed San Diego deal the Pirates were getting young prospects from the Padres with the exception of Jarvis who would be traded for money purposes. Xavier Nady is only 25, Oliver Perez is only 22, and the minor leaguer Jason Bay is 25 as well. Kevin Jarvis is 34 but again he would only be traded for money purposes. All of these players fit the mold for players that the Pirates need in order to start rebuilding.

              As for the player in the Angels deal Aaron Sele is 33, Bengie Molina is 29 and Erstad is also 29. These are older players and not what the Pirates need now. Yes the Pirates could use a few vetrens to help the younger players learn the ins and outs of baseball, but I dont think these are the players to do that. I think Matt Stairs could do a great job of doing that aif he were to be resigned for next year.

              It may be just me but this feels like just way too much of a slary dump. The Pirates get a good outfielder with injury problems, a decent catcher and an old pitcher for some really good player. Brian Giles is the epitome of underrated superstar, Kendal huge contract and all is still a solid catcher, and Benson a number 1 draft pick who has shown flashes of being great but mechanics trouble led to a bad year. I think the players that the Angles are offering are good players, just not the ones that the Pirates need right now, even though this would be a great oppertunity to unload some large contracts that the Pirates have. If I were the Pirates I would just wait till the offseason and see what the Padres do and possibly trade for some talented youth.

              Comment

              • Karlos05
                -
                • Mar 2003
                • 5814

                #22
                Re: Brian Giles to Angels??

                </font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
                griffy97 said:
                </font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
                Karlos05 said:
                I dont like this deal one bit........ Something about this, I definatly like the one with San Diego better.

                <hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

                Karlos, I know you know your Pirates very well.

                What don't you like about it?

                <hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

                To me it just seems like TOO much of a salary dump. I know the Pirates are in money problems and need to seriously cut back to stop the bleeding. The best way to build a competitive team with bleeding money out of the nose is to build it from the ground up, with your prospects and young players.

                In all of the proposed San Diego deal the Pirates were getting young prospects from the Padres with the exception of Jarvis who would be traded for money purposes. Xavier Nady is only 25, Oliver Perez is only 22, and the minor leaguer Jason Bay is 25 as well. Kevin Jarvis is 34 but again he would only be traded for money purposes. All of these players fit the mold for players that the Pirates need in order to start rebuilding.

                As for the player in the Angels deal Aaron Sele is 33, Bengie Molina is 29 and Erstad is also 29. These are older players and not what the Pirates need now. Yes the Pirates could use a few vetrens to help the younger players learn the ins and outs of baseball, but I dont think these are the players to do that. I think Matt Stairs could do a great job of doing that aif he were to be resigned for next year.

                It may be just me but this feels like just way too much of a slary dump. The Pirates get a good outfielder with injury problems, a decent catcher and an old pitcher for some really good player. Brian Giles is the epitome of underrated superstar, Kendal huge contract and all is still a solid catcher, and Benson a number 1 draft pick who has shown flashes of being great but mechanics trouble led to a bad year. I think the players that the Angles are offering are good players, just not the ones that the Pirates need right now, even though this would be a great oppertunity to unload some large contracts that the Pirates have. If I were the Pirates I would just wait till the offseason and see what the Padres do and possibly trade for some talented youth.

                Comment

                • LetsGoPitt
                  Cr*m*n*lly *nd*rr*t*d
                  • Jul 2002
                  • 5673

                  #23
                  Re: Brian Giles to Angels??

                  I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree with you on this one....

                  First of all, Jason Kendall is NOT a solid catcher. I'd even dare to say he's up there with Mike Piazza as the worst defensively in the NL. If you add to that that he's only a singles hitter who has never shown any ability to consistently drive in runs, you end up with a terribly overrated player.

                  Yes, losing Giles will hurt. Erstad wouldn't be a bad fit if he could stay healthy. He has some pop in his bat, and since he's a lefty, he could take advantage of the shorter right field at PNC. Benji Molina is a huge upgrade on the defensive side of the ball, and is a solid .270-ish hitter who has driven in 60 runs and hit 11 home runs, both more than twice Kendall has. The only thing you lose is speed, and a lot of the newer guys coming up (Redman, Sanchez, etc) are considered "top of the lineup guys" PLUS it'd be great for Jack Wilson to get Kendall out of the 2 spot.

                  Aaron Sele is tough to judge because he's in a "coming off surgery" year, but he could be a fit similar to what Jeff Suppan did for us this year -- provide some stability in the rotation. Consider the following rotation if the trade does happen:

                  Kip Wells
                  Dave Williams
                  Josh Fogg
                  Aaron Sele
                  Nelson Figueroa/Brian Meadows/Ryan Vogelsong/some random other guy

                  That's not too terrible....

                  I'm not ready to give up on Benson's career, but I think a change of scenery would do him well, and I'd rather he went to an AL team, where we wouldn't have to face him (a la Jason Schmidt)
                  “In my lifetime, we've gone from Eisenhower to George W. Bush. We've gone from John F. Kennedy to Al Gore. If this is evolution, I believe that in twelve years, we'll be voting for plants.” - Lewis Black

                  Comment

                  • LetsGoPitt
                    Cr*m*n*lly *nd*rr*t*d
                    • Jul 2002
                    • 5673

                    #24
                    Re: Brian Giles to Angels??

                    I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree with you on this one....

                    First of all, Jason Kendall is NOT a solid catcher. I'd even dare to say he's up there with Mike Piazza as the worst defensively in the NL. If you add to that that he's only a singles hitter who has never shown any ability to consistently drive in runs, you end up with a terribly overrated player.

                    Yes, losing Giles will hurt. Erstad wouldn't be a bad fit if he could stay healthy. He has some pop in his bat, and since he's a lefty, he could take advantage of the shorter right field at PNC. Benji Molina is a huge upgrade on the defensive side of the ball, and is a solid .270-ish hitter who has driven in 60 runs and hit 11 home runs, both more than twice Kendall has. The only thing you lose is speed, and a lot of the newer guys coming up (Redman, Sanchez, etc) are considered "top of the lineup guys" PLUS it'd be great for Jack Wilson to get Kendall out of the 2 spot.

                    Aaron Sele is tough to judge because he's in a "coming off surgery" year, but he could be a fit similar to what Jeff Suppan did for us this year -- provide some stability in the rotation. Consider the following rotation if the trade does happen:

                    Kip Wells
                    Dave Williams
                    Josh Fogg
                    Aaron Sele
                    Nelson Figueroa/Brian Meadows/Ryan Vogelsong/some random other guy

                    That's not too terrible....

                    I'm not ready to give up on Benson's career, but I think a change of scenery would do him well, and I'd rather he went to an AL team, where we wouldn't have to face him (a la Jason Schmidt)
                    “In my lifetime, we've gone from Eisenhower to George W. Bush. We've gone from John F. Kennedy to Al Gore. If this is evolution, I believe that in twelve years, we'll be voting for plants.” - Lewis Black

                    Comment

                    • LetsGoPitt
                      Cr*m*n*lly *nd*rr*t*d
                      • Jul 2002
                      • 5673

                      #25
                      Re: Brian Giles to Angels??

                      I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree with you on this one....

                      First of all, Jason Kendall is NOT a solid catcher. I'd even dare to say he's up there with Mike Piazza as the worst defensively in the NL. If you add to that that he's only a singles hitter who has never shown any ability to consistently drive in runs, you end up with a terribly overrated player.

                      Yes, losing Giles will hurt. Erstad wouldn't be a bad fit if he could stay healthy. He has some pop in his bat, and since he's a lefty, he could take advantage of the shorter right field at PNC. Benji Molina is a huge upgrade on the defensive side of the ball, and is a solid .270-ish hitter who has driven in 60 runs and hit 11 home runs, both more than twice Kendall has. The only thing you lose is speed, and a lot of the newer guys coming up (Redman, Sanchez, etc) are considered "top of the lineup guys" PLUS it'd be great for Jack Wilson to get Kendall out of the 2 spot.

                      Aaron Sele is tough to judge because he's in a "coming off surgery" year, but he could be a fit similar to what Jeff Suppan did for us this year -- provide some stability in the rotation. Consider the following rotation if the trade does happen:

                      Kip Wells
                      Dave Williams
                      Josh Fogg
                      Aaron Sele
                      Nelson Figueroa/Brian Meadows/Ryan Vogelsong/some random other guy

                      That's not too terrible....

                      I'm not ready to give up on Benson's career, but I think a change of scenery would do him well, and I'd rather he went to an AL team, where we wouldn't have to face him (a la Jason Schmidt)
                      “In my lifetime, we've gone from Eisenhower to George W. Bush. We've gone from John F. Kennedy to Al Gore. If this is evolution, I believe that in twelve years, we'll be voting for plants.” - Lewis Black

                      Comment

                      • 7Words
                        MVP
                        • Jul 2003
                        • 697

                        #26
                        Re: Brian Giles to Angels??

                        i don't know, i think they would go to the Padres before they made that deal

                        Comment

                        • 7Words
                          MVP
                          • Jul 2003
                          • 697

                          #27
                          Re: Brian Giles to Angels??

                          i don't know, i think they would go to the Padres before they made that deal

                          Comment

                          • 7Words
                            MVP
                            • Jul 2003
                            • 697

                            #28
                            Re: Brian Giles to Angels??

                            i don't know, i think they would go to the Padres before they made that deal

                            Comment

                            • griffy97
                              *t's * 'B*rgh Th*ng!
                              • May 2003
                              • 364

                              #29
                              Re: Brian Giles to Angels??

                              As usual, Pitt and I seem to be on the same page.

                              Okay, here's my logic behind this trade (and, no, this trade has NOT been rumored, other than the Angels interest in Giles. I put this trade together):

                              Brian Giles vs. Darin Erstad
                              Advantage:ANGELS

                              Contract status: Giles

                              2004: $9.5 mil; 2005: $9.5 mil; 2006: $10 mil

                              If this is slightly incorrect, my bad. My source has Giles signed through '06.

                              Erstad's contract:

                              2004: $7.5 mil; 2005: $8m; 2006: $8.5m

                              While Giles is slightly more expensive than Erstad, he is much more value-priced for his production. Granted, Erstad is a nice player that makes good contact, hits for decent power, plus brings speed and defense. However, Giles is a more productive hitter. Erstad would fit PNC Park quite nicely.

                              Kris Benson vs. Aaron Sele
                              Advantage: EVEN

                              Benson 2004 $6.1 mil. Sele 2004 $8.5 mil.
                              Both are free agents after the 2004 season.

                              The Pirates, on the surface, are dealing a 28-year old former #1 pick for a soon-to-be 34-year old veteran curveballer coming off surgery. Bad deal? Not so fast.

                              First, Benson WILL NEVER RE-SIGN with the Pirates, especially after how he's been grilled from everyone inside and outside the organization. Even though he has one year left on paper, he's effectively finished here now. So, a change of scenery surely wouldn't hurt. Second, Benson is yet another over-hyped, under-producing Pirate prospect that is below .500 for his career and has a "soft" tag, fair or not. Third, while Sele is older and more expensive, he is also much more accomplished and would fit the niche Jeff Suppan served very well here. Plus, the Pirates would clean his contract off the books at season's end.

                              Jason Kendall vs. Benji Molina
                              Advantage: PIRATES

                              This IS the key to the deal. Take a VERY CLOSE look at Kendall's deal and you'll see why Kevin Towers wanted more time to digest even half of it:

                              2004: $8 million
                              2005: $10 million
                              2006: $11 million
                              2007: $13 million

                              All punctuated with a COMPLETE NO-TRADE CLAUSE!!!

                              Ugggh!! That's ugly! So is Kendall in catcher's gear. It's a shame he busted his ankle in 1999 because that injury essentially sapped his speed and, while he's never been great defensively, he's even poorer now. Now, look at Molina's deal, who at 29, is the same age as Kendall, is superior defensively by a wide margin, and hits for more power:

                              2004: $1.9 million
                              2005: Team option @ $3 million or $100k buyout.

                              The Pirates could easily exercise the option and still be getting a steal!

                              The sad thing is, the Angels would probably ask the Pirates to eat part of JK's deal as well, since they're inexplicably munching on $12 million of Kevin Appier's contract for NEXT year.

                              When you're taking back the contracts of Erstad and Sele, its hardly a salary dump. Nor, would the fan base think of it as that. These guys are all name players, with the possible exception of Molina. But, trust me, Molina's a good catcher. Ask an Angels fan.

                              You know, the more you look at the obscene numbers on Kendall's deal, plus the fact Cam Bonifay signed him to a 6 year / $60 million contract AFTER the ankle injury, plus the 3-year extension given to Pat Meares after one MONTH in a Pirates' uniform, plus the multi-year deal donated to Derek Bell, its no wonder McClatchy's lost $30 million. I can actually see this being true. So, who's worse? Kevin McClatchy or Cam Bonifay.

                              I just love how the media loves second-guessing Dave Littlefield. As far as I'm concerned, unless we deal Giles to Anaheim for the Rally Monkey and Jeff DeVanon, there is no way he'll ever be worse than Bonifay!

                              Comment

                              • griffy97
                                *t's * 'B*rgh Th*ng!
                                • May 2003
                                • 364

                                #30
                                Re: Brian Giles to Angels??

                                As usual, Pitt and I seem to be on the same page.

                                Okay, here's my logic behind this trade (and, no, this trade has NOT been rumored, other than the Angels interest in Giles. I put this trade together):

                                Brian Giles vs. Darin Erstad
                                Advantage:ANGELS

                                Contract status: Giles

                                2004: $9.5 mil; 2005: $9.5 mil; 2006: $10 mil

                                If this is slightly incorrect, my bad. My source has Giles signed through '06.

                                Erstad's contract:

                                2004: $7.5 mil; 2005: $8m; 2006: $8.5m

                                While Giles is slightly more expensive than Erstad, he is much more value-priced for his production. Granted, Erstad is a nice player that makes good contact, hits for decent power, plus brings speed and defense. However, Giles is a more productive hitter. Erstad would fit PNC Park quite nicely.

                                Kris Benson vs. Aaron Sele
                                Advantage: EVEN

                                Benson 2004 $6.1 mil. Sele 2004 $8.5 mil.
                                Both are free agents after the 2004 season.

                                The Pirates, on the surface, are dealing a 28-year old former #1 pick for a soon-to-be 34-year old veteran curveballer coming off surgery. Bad deal? Not so fast.

                                First, Benson WILL NEVER RE-SIGN with the Pirates, especially after how he's been grilled from everyone inside and outside the organization. Even though he has one year left on paper, he's effectively finished here now. So, a change of scenery surely wouldn't hurt. Second, Benson is yet another over-hyped, under-producing Pirate prospect that is below .500 for his career and has a "soft" tag, fair or not. Third, while Sele is older and more expensive, he is also much more accomplished and would fit the niche Jeff Suppan served very well here. Plus, the Pirates would clean his contract off the books at season's end.

                                Jason Kendall vs. Benji Molina
                                Advantage: PIRATES

                                This IS the key to the deal. Take a VERY CLOSE look at Kendall's deal and you'll see why Kevin Towers wanted more time to digest even half of it:

                                2004: $8 million
                                2005: $10 million
                                2006: $11 million
                                2007: $13 million

                                All punctuated with a COMPLETE NO-TRADE CLAUSE!!!

                                Ugggh!! That's ugly! So is Kendall in catcher's gear. It's a shame he busted his ankle in 1999 because that injury essentially sapped his speed and, while he's never been great defensively, he's even poorer now. Now, look at Molina's deal, who at 29, is the same age as Kendall, is superior defensively by a wide margin, and hits for more power:

                                2004: $1.9 million
                                2005: Team option @ $3 million or $100k buyout.

                                The Pirates could easily exercise the option and still be getting a steal!

                                The sad thing is, the Angels would probably ask the Pirates to eat part of JK's deal as well, since they're inexplicably munching on $12 million of Kevin Appier's contract for NEXT year.

                                When you're taking back the contracts of Erstad and Sele, its hardly a salary dump. Nor, would the fan base think of it as that. These guys are all name players, with the possible exception of Molina. But, trust me, Molina's a good catcher. Ask an Angels fan.

                                You know, the more you look at the obscene numbers on Kendall's deal, plus the fact Cam Bonifay signed him to a 6 year / $60 million contract AFTER the ankle injury, plus the 3-year extension given to Pat Meares after one MONTH in a Pirates' uniform, plus the multi-year deal donated to Derek Bell, its no wonder McClatchy's lost $30 million. I can actually see this being true. So, who's worse? Kevin McClatchy or Cam Bonifay.

                                I just love how the media loves second-guessing Dave Littlefield. As far as I'm concerned, unless we deal Giles to Anaheim for the Rally Monkey and Jeff DeVanon, there is no way he'll ever be worse than Bonifay!

                                Comment

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