Pete Rose was a better hitter than Ted Williams...

[BDKiiing]

Re: Pete Rose was a better hitter than Ted Williams...

wow, as great and well deserving of the Hall, Pete Rose is, I cant believe it was even a debate. As for Barry, he is the most feared hitter ever, and did it legally, as did Big Mac. PEDs were legal then, why cant people grasp that?

[12]

Re: Pete Rose was a better hitter than Ted Williams...

wow, as great and well deserving of the Hall, Pete Rose is, I cant believe it was even a debate. As for Barry, he is the most feared hitter ever, and did it legally, as did Big Mac. PEDs were legal then, why cant people grasp that?

Legally? No, they didn't.

They can't grasp it because it's simply not true.

In 1990, the laws of our land said that possessing steroids or using them was against the law.

Baseball does not supersede the laws of our country.

Also, you're wrong anyway, even if the rules of baseball trump the laws of our land:

The Houston Chronicle's Richard Justice always has something interesting to say in his blog. Yesterday he cleared up a common misconception about steroids being banned only in recent years:

"Commissioner Fay Vincent sent the clubs a memo in 1991 reminding them that players were forbidden from taking any illegal substance. He specifically mention steroids in the memo and encouraged the clubs to take a get-tough policy on players thought to be using steroids.

What could a team have done if it suspected a player of using steroids? Probably nothing.

Vincent simply wanted to be on the record as letting the clubs know that steroid use was against the rules and that they shouldn't be afraid to confront a player.

There was no testing for steroids until 2003 (after being part of the 2002 labor agreement).

The notion that Bonds wasn't breaking any rules is ridiculous. He was. He knew he was."

[snepp]

Re: Pete Rose was a better hitter than Ted Williams...

wow, as great and well deserving of the Hall, Pete Rose is, I cant believe it was even a debate. As for Barry, he is the most feared hitter ever, and did it legally, as did Big Mac. PEDs were legal then, why cant people grasp that?

You're wrong. Baseball officially banned steroids in 1991, not to mention their acquisition and use without prescription isn't even legal outside the game.

Grasp that?

[sbmnky]

Re: Pete Rose was a better hitter than Ted Williams...

In my opinion most fans are causal, at best, and let ESPN dictate what stats are deemed important. Hardly will you come across a co-worker who is knowledgeable of more "important" stats or looking at the whole picture. This is the reason I choose not to converse sports with these people - I will engage in dull water cooler talk so I don't seem antisocial, but I won't get deep into "geek" talk because there is a very high probability I'll get frustrated.

I'm a huge Rose fan (off field issues aside) and I loved the way he played the game, but do you think he would be as revered if he played in today's game? I think Ted Williams would be even more valuable today.

[DrJones]

Re: Pete Rose was a better hitter than Ted Williams...

This and the original poster's story makes me think the casual sports fans are dumber than a bag of bricks.

Try reading the comments section for an ESPN column sometime, regardless of topic. You'll never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy.

[LingeringRegime]

Re: Pete Rose was a better hitter than Ted Williams...

Ichiro > all.

Try reading the comments section for an ESPN column sometime, regardless of topic. You'll never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy.

Thank you good doctor, for my new signature. Truer words have never been spoken.

[CMH]

Try reading the comments section for an ESPN column sometime, regardless of topic. You'll never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy.

You must be reading them early because by the time I get to them they are arguing over something irrelevant to the topic.


Sent from my mobile device.

[EnigmaNemesis]

Re: Pete Rose was a better hitter than Ted Williams...

Try reading the comments section for an ESPN column sometime, regardless of topic. You'll never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy.

You must be reading them early because by the time I get to them they are arguing over something irrelevant to the topic.


Sent from my mobile device.

So darn true ... and every topic even if it is about tennis, will contain Yankee fans going at it with Red Sox fans, or Jets fans arguing with a curling fan.

[Tomahawk]

Re: Pete Rose was a better hitter than Ted Williams...

I think I would ask the guy this question. What is the purpose of the game? To score runs. Based on hitting ability a team of Ted Williams is going to score a lot more runs than a team of Pete Roses.

[jake44np]

Re: Pete Rose was a better hitter than Ted Williams...

Pete Rose was really good for a really, really long time.
He was a good singles hitter who just happened to last for a really long time.

Ted Williams was a great hitter for less time (partly because of his military service.)
Ted was a great all around hitter who drove the ball and drove in runs.

[travis72]

Re: Pete Rose was a better hitter than Ted Williams...

I can agree that it can be subjective. Depends on what you favor.

However, it's important to note that Pete Rose played nearly double Ted Williams' career.

Williams had over 9,791 career plate appearances. Rose had 15,861.

Let that sink in a bit.

This right hear is a perfect example you got to look at what a person did in the amount of time they played. I am a huge Rose fan but no he is not the greatest hitter ever. Sometimes people get way to involved in carrer numbers. Thats like saying Brett farve is the greatest passer in NFL history because of his numbers. It took him more games to pass Marino not counting the fact Marino did not have the BS pass interferance call that Farve had agood part of his career.
If you look at Hank Aaron Hr totals it took him more at bats to break the Babe Ruth's total. Not to take anything away from a guy than is lucky enough health wise to play for a lot of years because that is something special as well.

[Hooe]

Re: Pete Rose was a better hitter than Ted Williams...

I ask this question playing devil's advocate more than anything else, I don't claim to know anything about baseball:

How does the pitching each player typically went up against compare? My immediate impression would be that a couple extra decades of medical technology would work in Rose and his peers' favor. My argument, and admittedly one based on pure conjecture, is that the pitchers Rose went up against hypothetically would have faster fastballs, more ability to put movement on their pitches, greater ability to recover from a previous outing, etc. than did any typical pitcher in Williams' era.

Just as there's an argument against comparing football players of different eras given that the overall athletic talent in the game has increased over the past 100 years (though in football's case, the rules of the game have steadily changed as well), why can't that apply to baseball, or any other sport, as well?

[McCannFann]

Re: Pete Rose was a better hitter than Ted Williams...

Ichiro > all.

I'd have to agree. Obviously MLB doesn't recognize NPB stats as a part of their own, nor should they, but when you look at it on a single player basis, Ichiro has been, throughout his career, the very best natural hitter, in MLB or NPB. Better than Tony Gwynn, even.

Here's to hoping I can withstand the impending firestorm.

[12]

Re: Pete Rose was a better hitter than Ted Williams...

Actually, the greatest hitter of all-time was my RTTS 3B. 17 seasons, .335 lifetime batting average, 3,449 hits, 822 home runs, 2,548 runs batted in, 313 stolen bases, 1,712 walks, 1.115 OPS and a 10-time MVP and 17-time All-Star.

Who can touch that? No one!

All kidding aside, the argument that Rose faced better pitchers is a valid one. I've never been one to think otherwise. I don't think it can be disputed that he didn't. Williams faced inferior competition. We can never prove this but, common sense tells me it's true.

As for Ichiro being the best hitter ever, well, no. Not in my opinion at least, and I'm a Mariners' fan. He hits for a great average and collects massive amounts of hits, but he doesn't hit for power and he doesn't drive in too many runs. I realize he's a lead off hitter so that might not be fair, but I just don't see it. He's behind Ricky Henderson as the greatest lead off hitter ever IMO and his defense has been spectacular. He's a definite Hall of Fame inductee in my book but I can't make that leap and call him the best hitter ever. I have to factor in lifetime BA, hits, home runs, runs batted in, etc... Not just one or two of the big stats.

In the clutch, would you want Ichiro in the batter's box, or say, Albert Pujols? Or Mays, Mantle, Aaron, Ruth or Williams? I couldn't put Ichiro ahead of any of those guys.

[CMH]

Re: Pete Rose was a better hitter than Ted Williams...

I ask this question playing devil's advocate more than anything else, I don't claim to know anything about baseball:

How does the pitching each player typically went up against compare? My immediate impression would be that a couple extra decades of medical technology would work in Rose and his peers' favor. My argument, and admittedly one based on pure conjecture, is that the pitchers Rose went up against hypothetically would have faster fastballs, more ability to put movement on their pitches, greater ability to recover from a previous outing, etc. than did any typical pitcher in Williams' era.

Just as there's an argument against comparing football players of different eras given that the overall athletic talent in the game has increased over the past 100 years (though in football's case, the rules of the game have steadily changed as well), why can't that apply to baseball, or any other sport, as well?

I don't like looking at one stat to prove a point, but I'm sure there's more to show this so I'll state it anyway: There is OPS+ which adjusts for league and ballpark.

Ted Williams is second all-time and the list of the top players come from various eras.

1. Babe Ruth, 207
2. Ted Williams, 191
3. Barry Bonds, 182
4. Lou Gehrig, 179
5. Rogers Hornsby, 175
6. Mickey Mantle, 172
6. Albert Pujols, 172
8. Dan Brouthers, 170
8. Joe Jackson, 170
10. Ty Cobb, 167
11. Jimmie Foxx, 163