The Hot Stove League Thread

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  • Coug00
    LOB
    • Jul 2002
    • 3476

    #1231
    Re: The Hot Stove League Thread

    Originally posted by bkrich83
    When they start winning then tout how well they've done. They haven't done anything yet, and during their tenure they've been arguably the worst team in the league.
    Where have I touted how well they've done? They were put in a no win situation. There's not a GM in baseball who could have turned them around while dropping the budget more than $15m. As an M's fan, they've done what I wanted them to do...develop a farm system Gillick and Bavasi destroyed. We'll see what comes within the next 2-4 years.

    You can talk about farm system ratings and building through youth.. Lots of teams have said that.. Few actually succeed at it.
    I couldn't disagree more. No other sport has as many low budget teams make the playoffs than baseball. Obviously they don't get there by throwing millions, so how do they do it other than building through the minors?
    Member of The OS Baseball Rocket Scientists Association

    Comment

    • bkrich83
      Has Been
      • Jul 2002
      • 71582

      #1232
      Re: The Hot Stove League Thread

      Originally posted by Coug00
      Where have I touted how well they've done? They were put in a no win situation. There's not a GM in baseball who could have turned them around while dropping the budget more than $15m. As an M's fan, they've done what I wanted them to do...develop a farm system Gillick and Bavasi destroyed. We'll see what comes within the next 2-4 years.



      I couldn't disagree more. No other sport has as many low budget teams make the playoffs than baseball. Obviously they don't get there by throwing millions, so how do they do it other than building through the minors?
      They are the exception not the rule. League is filled with bottom dwellers with no payroll who've been building the farm systems that have been terrible for years. Mariners included.

      Great prospects are just that. Until those systems start producing productive player, talking up the farm clubs is just that, talk.
      Tracking my NCAA Coach Career

      Comment

      • Coug00
        LOB
        • Jul 2002
        • 3476

        #1233
        Re: The Hot Stove League Thread

        Originally posted by bkrich83
        They are the exception not the rule. League is filled with bottom dwellers with no payroll who've been building the farm systems that have been terrible for years. Mariners included.
        That's not even close to true. The M's didn't start building their minor league system until 2009. They've been a team with a top 10 payroll for most of the 2000's that strictly relied on free agents and trades for MLB players. Prior to 2009, the farm system was used as trade bait. Those veterans aged and there was no talent to backfill.

        The spread of teams that make the playoffs is all over the board the last 10 years. 3 of the last 5 World Series have been represented by a team with a bottom 6 payroll. Only six (of 12) World Series champions since 2000 have had a top 10 payroll. You obviously disagree, but many teams have had proven success building through the minors, then supplementing that talent with some medium tier free agents to keep their payroll down.

        Great prospects are just that. Until those systems start producing productive player, talking up the farm clubs is just that, talk.
        Then good thing I'm on a message board where we talk baseball.
        Member of The OS Baseball Rocket Scientists Association

        Comment

        • 12
          Banned
          • Feb 2010
          • 4458

          #1234
          Re: The Hot Stove League Thread

          Originally posted by bkrich83
          95, 101 and 101 losses in the last 4 years is not getting it done. You can't sugarcoat that. They've been dreadful, and have yet to prove they can put together a competitive team. There's no way around it.
          Oh, I must be mistaken BK... When did I ever say that they were "getting it done?"

          I wasn't sugarcoating, or attempting to sugarcoat anything.

          I am usually the first person in a Mariners' discussion that will talk about all of the losses - the six losing seasons in eight years and no playoff appearances; I was merely saying that their farm system has improved. I am not sure how that can be denied. Will it translate to the Major League ball club? I hope so.

          There's no need to go and twist my words. I never said they were getting it done or implying that the M's are anywhere near contention.

          Comment

          • 12
            Banned
            • Feb 2010
            • 4458

            #1235
            Re: The Hot Stove League Thread

            Originally posted by bkrich83
            When they start winning then tout how well they've done. They haven't done anything yet, and during their tenure they've been arguably the worst team in the league.

            You can talk about farm system ratings and building through youth.. Lots of teams have said that.. Few actually succeed at it.
            LOL, not once did he say anyone was doing anything good... That's yet to be seen, obviously.

            Seems like you're just arguing for the sake of arguing with a divisional rival's fans. What you're doing is arguing against points that were never made.

            Comment

            • 12
              Banned
              • Feb 2010
              • 4458

              #1236
              Re: The Hot Stove League Thread

              Originally posted by bkrich83

              Great prospects are just that. Until those systems start producing productive player, talking up the farm clubs is just that, talk.
              Isn't this a baseball board?

              Edit: Coug00, thanks for clarifying that for me!

              Comment

              • bkrich83
                Has Been
                • Jul 2002
                • 71582

                #1237
                Re: The Hot Stove League Thread

                Originally posted by Apostle
                LOL, not once did he say anyone was doing anything good... That's yet to be seen, obviously.

                Seems like you're just arguing for the sake of arguing with a divisional rival's fans. What you're doing is arguing against points that were never made.
                Since when are the mariners a rival? my point was a lot of teams claim to be building through the farm system, and they fail over and over again. I posted the mariners track record shows they've not been managed well. Until they start winning you really can't disprove that.

                I live in the town of a team who continues to preach building from within but they can't develop a player to save their lives. The mariners haven't shown they can either.
                Tracking my NCAA Coach Career

                Comment

                • 12
                  Banned
                  • Feb 2010
                  • 4458

                  #1238
                  Re: The Hot Stove League Thread

                  Originally posted by bkrich83
                  Since when are the mariners a rival? my point was a lot of teams claim to be building through the farm system, and they fail over and over again. I posted the mariners track record shows they've not been managed well. Until they start winning you really can't disprove that.

                  I live in the town of a team who continues to preach building from within but they can't develop a player to save their lives. The mariners haven't shown they can either.
                  How far back are you going? The M's have drafted and developed Griffey, Edgar, A-Rod... Signed Felix when he was 16... Signed Pineda when he was around the same age (I realize Pineda needs a bigger sample size)... Of course that's not that recent, but it's hard to develop players when your farm system was considered one of the five worst in all of baseball over the past decade. There's not much to develop when you don't draft well (Josh Fields in the first round among countless others - thanks, Bavasi) and have a bottom-of-the-barrel farm system. The point was the direction that Jack Z has gone - no more huge free agent signings (Beltre, Sexton). The philosophy is different.

                  I am not trying to disprove anything because I haven't made any real assertions other than the fact that the team is going in a different direction than they have over the past 10 years. The focus is the farm system and getting talented kids in the organization. Their system used to be one of the worst in baseball and the importance was never placed in keeping a well stocked system with legit prospects. None of them are proven at the MLB level, but that should really go without saying. The focus is now shifting to what many M's fans have been wanting over the past few years - be smart in FA, draft well, make good International signings and develop the young talent. It might work, it might not. It's true that a lot of teams have tried and failed, but look at the Rays and other smaller market teams - maybe it is the exception rather than the rule, but when you've been as pitiful as the M's have been over the past eight years, it's a good direction to go in.

                  I said the system has improved greatly, while obviously realizing that the proof has yet to arrive. Coug00 said essentially the same thing. We can't boast yet but looking at it and being honest, the farm system is better than it was. I hope it translates to wins at the MLB level. Time will tell.

                  Touche on the rival comment... Sad but true, the M's haven't been much competition in the AL West for a long time now. It's definitely a two-team race with the Rangers and the Halos for the foreseeable future.

                  Comment

                  • BatsareBugs
                    LVP
                    • Feb 2003
                    • 12553

                    #1239
                    Re: The Hot Stove League Thread

                    Originally posted by bkrich83
                    I live in the town of a team who continues to preach building from within but they can't develop a player to save their lives. The mariners haven't shown they can either.
                    Too many knuckleheads and stuff. They get players and can't develop them, then they turn around and get low ceiling guys who can never be stars but somehow make it to the major league level.

                    It's really hard to develop players when you throw away first round picks in the form of Allan Dykstra and Nick Schmidt, both of whom have had red flags (and then when they get to the major league level, at the first sign of failure they're benched indefinitely).

                    Comment

                    • BunnyHardaway
                      Banned
                      • Nov 2004
                      • 15195

                      #1240
                      Re: The Hot Stove League Thread

                      There's not much to develop when you don't draft well (Josh Fields in the first round among countless others - thanks, Bavasi) and have a bottom-of-the-barrel farm system
                      Don't forget Jeff Clement.

                      I know how it feels to have a bunch of terrible 1st round picks and a bunch of hyped prospects not pan out. I remember when Hayden Penn, Radhames Liz, Daniel Cabrera, Erik Bedard, and Adam Loewen were supposed to anchor the rotation for years to come (only Bedard panned out)...now it's Matusz/Arrieta/Tillman/Bergesen/Britton, and all of them other than Britton have been mediocre at best. Off the top of my head the only above average players that the Orioles have developed over the last 8-10 years are Markakis, Bedard, and Wieters.

                      Comment

                      • JustOpinions
                        Banned
                        • Mar 2011
                        • 206

                        #1241
                        Re: The Hot Stove League Thread

                        Originally posted by JJLinn
                        Don't forget Jeff Clement.

                        I know how it feels to have a bunch of terrible 1st round picks and a bunch of hyped prospects not pan out. I remember when Hayden Penn, Radhames Liz, Daniel Cabrera, Erik Bedard, and Adam Loewen were supposed to anchor the rotation for years to come (only Bedard panned out)...now it's Matusz/Arrieta/Tillman/Bergesen/Britton, and all of them other than Britton have been mediocre at best. Off the top of my head the only above average players that the Orioles have developed over the last 8-10 years are Markakis, Bedard, and Wieters.
                        Lowens a decent Outfielder now... on the Mets lol

                        Comment

                        • OSUFan_88
                          Outback Jesus
                          • Jul 2004
                          • 25642

                          #1242
                          Re: The Hot Stove League Thread

                          Fausto Carmona is now Roberto Hernandez Heredia, a 31 year old.

                          Too Old To Game Club

                          Urban Meyer is lol.

                          Comment

                          • BatsareBugs
                            LVP
                            • Feb 2003
                            • 12553

                            #1243
                            Re: The Hot Stove League Thread

                            Originally posted by OSUFan_88
                            Fausto Carmona is now Roberto Hernandez Heredia, a 31 year old.

                            That's good to know, and the real Fausto Carmona is using someone elses name.

                            I think it's ridiculous but what can MLB do? These guys slip through with this kind of stuff all the time. Back in 2007 or 2008, the Padres signed a shortstop going by the name Alvaro Aristy who turned out to be Jorge Guzman (and a couple of years older), and the ironic thing was the real Alvaro Aristy was caught earlier using someone elses name.

                            Makes me think Rymer Liriano, Yoan Alcantara, Adys Portillo, Jonathan Galvez, and Edinson Rincon are all frauds. It's only a matter of time.

                            Comment

                            • OSUFan_88
                              Outback Jesus
                              • Jul 2004
                              • 25642

                              #1244
                              Re: The Hot Stove League Thread

                              Originally posted by Rag3vsW0rld
                              That's good to know, and the real Fausto Carmona is using someone elses name.

                              I think it's ridiculous but what can MLB do? These guys slip through with this kind of stuff all the time. Back in 2007 or 2008, the Padres signed a shortstop going by the name Alvaro Aristy who turned out to be Jorge Guzman (and a couple of years older), and the ironic thing was the real Alvaro Aristy was caught earlier using someone elses name.

                              Makes me think Rymer Liriano, Yoan Alcantara, Adys Portillo, Jonathan Galvez, and Edinson Rincon are all frauds. It's only a matter of time.
                              The only good thing is that now the Indians can probably void that contract that he "signed".

                              Which...I hope they do but probably won't do it.
                              Too Old To Game Club

                              Urban Meyer is lol.

                              Comment

                              • The Big Squeezy
                                Pro
                                • May 2011
                                • 796

                                #1245
                                Re: The Hot Stove League Thread

                                I always knew there was something funny about that sweaty mother ****er.
                                Browns
                                Cavaliers
                                Indians
                                Buckeyes
                                Originally posted by snepp
                                Ken Dilger, weapon.
                                Someone needs to set this thread on fire.

                                Comment

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