5/28 - 6/3 Game Discussion Thread

[Reaman]

Re: 5/28 - 6/3 Game Discussion Thread

Johan has come a long way.

[Blzer]

Re: 5/28 - 6/3 Game Discussion Thread

Unless you're a guy like Verlander or Halladay, that is not the approach you should be taking as a pitcher. You can't hold pitching around certain hitters against a pitcher.

My point might be flying over some, but this is exactly why the no-hitter isn't just a measure on how many hits were issued (or weren't, I guess).

Does anyone else here think that a one-hitter with no walks allowed could be every bit as incredible? If not, I bet the reason you state might be a bit ironic, all things considered.

Anyway, the Giants have found themselves a nice quiet tear that they're putting on their opposing teams. I just hope they can keep it up when they face Texas next week. With Kemp out, this is the time to move ahead in the NL West.

[TheMatrix31]

Re: 5/28 - 6/3 Game Discussion Thread

I think a complete game shutout with 1 hit and 1 walk given up is definitely more impressive than a no-hitter with like 6 or 7 walks, let's say.

[55]

Re: 5/28 - 6/3 Game Discussion Thread

I'll take Kerry Wood's 20 K game (1 H and 0 BB) over ANY no-hitter that has ever happened. Hell, that performance was even more dominant than most perfect games have been.

[SPTO]

Re: 5/28 - 6/3 Game Discussion Thread

I'll take Kerry Wood's 20 K game (1 H and 0 BB) over ANY no-hitter that has ever happened. Hell, that performance was even more dominant than most perfect games have been.

Throw in the 2 (or is 3?) 20 K games Roger Clemens had as well.

[Knight165]

Re: 5/28 - 6/3 Game Discussion Thread

My point might be flying over some, but this is exactly why the no-hitter isn't just a measure on how many hits were issued (or weren't, I guess).

Does anyone else here think that a one-hitter with no walks allowed could be every bit as incredible? If not, I bet the reason you state might be a bit ironic, all things considered.

Anyway, the Giants have found themselves a nice quiet tear that they're putting on their opposing teams. I just hope they can keep it up when they face Texas next week. With Kemp out, this is the time to move ahead in the NL West.

Actually, I put forth that a no hitter WITH walks is more difficult to achieve than a no hitter with no walks....and CERTAINLY more difficult(and impressive) as any one hitter.
The number of 1 hitters(with one or no walks compared to any # of no hitters in history will certainly bear this out)

1-Men on base changes a pitchers(usually ...unless they throw from the stretch as the norm) preferred windup.
2-Pitching with men on base is definitely more stressful than if nobody or just one guy reaches.

Is a no hitter with one walk a more dominant game? Okay... I can give you that I guess..
But to take away from a no hitter with a number of walks ...that's a bit laughable.

M.K.
Knight165

[DieHardYankee26]

Re: 5/28 - 6/3 Game Discussion Thread

Actually, I put forth that a no hitter WITH walks is more difficult to achieve than a no hitter with no walks....and CERTAINLY more difficult(and impressive) as any one hitter.
The number of 1 hitters(with one or no walks compared to any # of no hitters in history will certainly bear this out)

1-Men on base changes a pitchers(usually ...unless they throw from the stretch as the norm) preferred windup.
2-Pitching with men on base is definitely more stressful than if nobody or just one guy reaches.

Is a no hitter with one walk a more dominant game? Okay... I can give you that I guess..
But to take away from a no hitter with a number of walks ...that's a bit laughable.

M.K.
Knight165

So what you're saying is that a no hitter with walks is harder to achieve than a perfect game? If so, that is ridiculous. And the number of perfect games to the number of no hitters will bear that out.

[JBH3]

Re: 5/28 - 6/3 Game Discussion Thread

Keeping runners off the bases is definitely the most prestigious of single-game pitching feats IMO.

Keeping batters from getting any hits would be 2nd most, even if you are walking multiple hitters.

Striking out 20 is impressive as well, and screams utter domination because very few in the field are making a play which contributes to the outs - Its just the pitcher dominating his opponent AB after AB.

Will we ever see a perfect game with 27 strikeouts? :wink:

[Blzer]

Re: 5/28 - 6/3 Game Discussion Thread

Interesting take, Knight. I can sort of see where you're coming from, but it's solely based on the performance and not the approach of the achievement itself.

EDIT: ****, I started rambling. Don't bother reading if you don't care haha.

Spoiler

Let me quickly go with the perfect game example. Both the pitcher and the defense are nervous as can be for every single pitch, in fear that they will be the ones to break up the perfect game. A hit, walk, hit-by-pitch, error, or drop-third strike can cause the perfect game to be broken up (we're falling under the notion that catcher's obstruction is an E2). Because of this, your approach completely changes. As a pitcher, you're telling yourself that in order to throw that perfect game, you can't walk or hit anybody. This may take away your ability to work backwards on hitters, challenge them inside, and shoot... if you think your catcher might not have your back on an 0-2 curveball in the dirt, you might even eliminate that from your arsenal. So, as the pitcher, now you've eliminated certain things that you can do on the mound, which means the hitter now should have more opportunities to be successful off the pitcher in the hit column.

Now let's go with the no-hitter example. Let's say a pitcher walks a batter to destroy his perfect game opportunity. It could even be in the first inning, for all we care. Once that walk is issued, the perfect game is out of sight and mind, but the no-hitter is still intact. What must you do to avoid losing your no-hitter? Don't let a batter get a hit. Well, what can you do with your approach now, as a pitcher, who has nothing to lose if he allows a walk, hit-by-pitch, fielding error, or drop-third strike? The pitcher now can work backwards on hitters, challenge inside, and throw those curves in the dirt. Not only this, but now the fielders can rest up on routine plays as well. Tension has dropped tremendously, and your weapons to get hitters out have increased.

I didn't watch the Johan no-hitter, so I can't say what kind of performance he actually had. But let's look at the same scenario on a hitter with two outs in the 9th inning and a 3-0 count when going for a perfect game and a no-hitter:

Perfect game - This pitch must be a strike. Pump a fastball and shoot for the middle of the plate. In this case, you'll take your chances if the batter has the green light.

No-hitter - Do you really think it's worth going anywhere near this batter for the rest of his at-bat? He can have two different hitter's counts, and the pressure is solely on the pitcher to make good pitches. Your job is to make sure this ball goes off the plate, and you might make sure there's some junk with it as well. Ball four. Next batter. No harm done.

The point becomes that approach means everything with these achievements, and pitchers can pick and choose their battles with no-hitters. I bet he got a lot of outs by throwing around hitters. I might be completely wrong on that, and technically that would be a very dominating performance if he did, but it's also much easier to get outs by throwing pitches out of the zone than throwing pitches into the zone (disregarding the players who are walked).

There are two kinds of perfect games: a team-based one and a pitcher-based one. The best possible team-based perfect game would be 27 pitches, and pitcher-based would be 27 strikeouts. A no-hitter, on the other hand is a game where the other team couldn't put up a number other than 0 in the hit column. Give the fielders credit for saving the balls which could have fallen in, but they'll be okay if they boot a ball or two. If anything, I'm taking away from no-hitters in general, and saying that Johan didn't happen to have the best of the no-hitters. That isn't a knock against his no-hitter, though. There's a difference.

[The Big Squeezy]

Re: 5/28 - 6/3 Game Discussion Thread

Congrats to Johan.

[19]

Re: 5/28 - 6/3 Game Discussion Thread

Let's go Sox, make it 10 in a row against the M's today. Have to get as far ahead of Detroit as possible while you can, because Detroit WILL figure it out eventually.

[Blzer]

Re: 5/28 - 6/3 Game Discussion Thread

By the way, I'm just hearing it for the first time, but there was a controversial call in this game where a ball perhaps on the chalk line was called foul? I guess the next question is... was his performance still as dominating even though the umpires might have gotten it wrong?

Anyway, the Red Sox are coming on and are actually showing some good baseball these days. It's on MLBN.

[19]

Re: 5/28 - 6/3 Game Discussion Thread

By the way, I'm just hearing it for the first time, but there was a controversial call in this game where a ball perhaps on the chalk line was called foul? I guess the next question is... was his performance still as dominating even though the umpires might have gotten it wrong?

Anyway, the Red Sox are coming on and are actually showing some good baseball these days. It's on MLBN.

I know a St. Louis paper put an asterisk after the No Hitter on their cover.

Ball was clearly fair. Regardless, he still shut out the #2 offense in the NL.

[sydrogerdavid]

Re: 5/28 - 6/3 Game Discussion Thread

By the way, I'm just hearing it for the first time, but there was a controversial call in this game where a ball perhaps on the chalk line was called foul? I guess the next question is... was his performance still as dominating even though the umpires might have gotten it wrong?

Anyway, the Red Sox are coming on and are actually showing some good baseball these days. It's on MLBN.

That was the only problem in the game. Otherwise he was dominate. They couldn't hit worth crap last night.

[Sportsforever]

Re: 5/28 - 6/3 Game Discussion Thread

Will we ever see a perfect game with 27 strikeouts? :wink:

In 1952 minor leaguer Ron Necciai pitched a no-hitter in which he struck out 27 hitters. He never made it in the majors because he tore his rotator cuff 10 games into his career.

Interesting notes on that:

- It is the ONLY time this was ever done at any professional level.
- Necciai actually didn't record every out by strikeout. There was a 4 strikeout inning because of a K+PB (the 28th out was a ground out to first).
- Amazingly enough, in his next start Necciai struck out 24 hitters in a 2-hit shutout. He ended up striking out 109 in 43 innings of work.