Barry Bonds or Ken Griffey Jr.?

[brett the jet favre]

Re: Barry Bonds or Ken Griffey Jr.?

I don't like Bonds at all, but that is just ridiculous. Several people have already posted the numbers. Bonds was better at EVERYTHING involving on-field performance than Griffey was. That is indisputable.

Its also undisputable that he used PEDS so we will never know his actual real numbers or Griffeys real numbers because he was injured.

[55]

Re: Barry Bonds or Ken Griffey Jr.?

Its also undisputable that he used PEDS so we will never know his actual real numbers or Griffeys real numbers because he was injured.

Again with the "what-ifs" and such. Hypotheticals don't mean a damn thing when discussing two players that had well over 10k PAs. We don't need hypotheticals in this case, we have gigantic sample sizes to work with that prove beyond a shadow of a doubt whom the superior player was.

[brett the jet favre]

Re: Barry Bonds or Ken Griffey Jr.?

Again with the "what-ifs" and such. Hypotheticals don't mean a damn thing when discussing two players that had well over 10k PAs. We don't need hypotheticals in this case, we have gigantic sample sizes to work with that prove beyond a shadow of a doubt whom the superior player was.

So are you saying PEDS do not make you stronger, and faster? Everyone knows he took that, you cant deny it.

[brett the jet favre]

Re: Barry Bonds or Ken Griffey Jr.?

And to say Bonds was a better player, just because his stats were better means nothing, he used steroids, obviously his numbers are going to explode, look at A-Roid. Seriously people.

[lonewolf371]

Re: Barry Bonds or Ken Griffey Jr.?

And to say Bonds was a better player, just because his stats were better means nothing, he used steroids, obviously his numbers are going to explode, look at A-Roid. Seriously people.

By 1993 Bonds was better than Griffey in every phase of the game from Griffey's prime. He didn't need PEDs. The PED years just make this whole thing a non-argument.

[jth1331]

Re: Barry Bonds or Ken Griffey Jr.?

Seriously, what is that fielding number people in this thread are throwing out there?
I think fielding is incredibly difficult to really "grade" and I've always thought using statistics is rather inconclusive.

All I remember is both Bonds and Griffey having great range, Griffey having a strong arm, Bonds more accurate arm but not as strong.

[lonewolf371]

Re: Barry Bonds or Ken Griffey Jr.?

Seriously, what is that fielding number people in this thread are throwing out there?
I think fielding is incredibly difficult to really "grade" and I've always thought using statistics is rather inconclusive.

All I remember is both Bonds and Griffey having great range, Griffey having a strong arm, Bonds more accurate arm but not as strong.

Most of it is total zone rating, which takes into account range, arm, and batter profiles. What goes into it is described here:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/ab...tal_zone.shtml

Much better than fielding percentage, gold gloves, etc. And it should give similar results as ultimate zone rating (possibly the best defensive metric at the moment), if I interpret it right.

[12]

Re: Barry Bonds or Ken Griffey Jr.?

Those 500 missed games do mean something. And you cant really compare careers, i understand that Bonds had some phenomenal seasons, but with the use of PEDS its not really a contest, would Bonds have stayed as healthy as he did without PEDS? No one knows, i do know Griffey has never used them, i do know that Griffey had an amazing swing, and that he was one of the most fun players to ever play baseball, i do know Griffey was the only person to be projected to hit over 800 home runs, but we will never know, Griffey was clean, and got injured.. a lot, so we never got to see his true potential. Griffey, by a land slide.

Come on, man. I am as big of an M's fan as there is here... I am as big of a Junior as anyone. He was my childhood hero and I idolized him when I was a kid, but you can't be serious. Pre-PED's Bonds was still a phenomenal player and the numbers don't lie when stacked against Junior's. Both were AMAZING players... Kind of like Mantle and Mays were in the 50's and 60's. You can't go wrong with either one of them but you can't ignore numbers and you can't go on what-if's here.

When I was younger, I had this argument too and lost every time. As biased as I am toward Junior, I can't truthfully say that he was a better player than Bonds.

I also believe Junior never used, which is all the more impressive but he got injured in Cincinnati for a couple different reasons... The turf in the Kingdome wrecked havoc on his legs and he did not have a strong work ethic. He never lifted weights and did not take care of his body... Even he will admit that. That's why you saw the added weight he put on later in his career. His natural ability was amazing but Bonds worked harder and was frankly a better ball player because of it.

It's not easy for me to admit that because I despise Bonds and love Junior, but it is what it is.

[12]

Re: Barry Bonds or Ken Griffey Jr.?

Seriously, what is that fielding number people in this thread are throwing out there?
I think fielding is incredibly difficult to really "grade" and I've always thought using statistics is rather inconclusive.

All I remember is both Bonds and Griffey having great range, Griffey having a strong arm, Bonds more accurate arm but not as strong.

Yeah, I don't really get that part, either. I am sure it is from my lack of knowledge on all the different stats we have now, but Junior played a phenomenal center field and was a perennial GG winner.

Both were plus defenders, so I don't get it when someone says Bonds was far superior to Junior defensively. Again, it's probably just ignorance on all of the different stats we have now.

[ImTellinTim]

Re: Barry Bonds or Ken Griffey Jr.?

And to say Bonds was a better player, just because his stats were better means nothing, he used steroids, obviously his numbers are going to explode, look at A-Roid. Seriously people.

Yep, we're the ones having trouble grasping things.

[SidVish]

Re: Barry Bonds or Ken Griffey Jr.?

I learned a long time ago that people believe whatever the heck they want to believe no matter the evidence or proof put in front of them. This thinking is also in reference to many more things outside of sports. The fact that Griffey will probably win this poll because he was their idol, has a prettier swing, or because he had to deal with injuries is pretty laughable.

Hey I get it Bonds is a very unlikeable guy but he was a much better baseball player than Griffey. Bonds had one of the best eyes at the plate and his mastery of the strike zone was ungodly. That didn't come from steroids.

[12]

Re: Barry Bonds or Ken Griffey Jr.?

I learned a long time ago that people believe whatever the heck they want to believe no matter the evidence or proof put in front of them. This thinking is also in reference to many more things outside of sports. The fact that Griffey will probably win this poll because he was their idol, has a prettier swing, or because he had to deal with injuries is pretty laughable.

Hey I get it Bonds is a very unlikeable guy but he was a much better baseball player than Griffey. Bonds had one of the best eyes at the plate and his mastery of the strike zone was ungodly. That didn't come from steroids.

Or some people just think Griffey was the better player. It's just an opinion if that's what they think. Griffey was my idol but I'm not in that camp and would never use something silly like "his swing was so beautiful" to justify him being better than Bonds.

He'll win the poll because like you said, Bonds is generally disliked. But people who actually know the game know who the better player was, and that's tough as **** for me to admit.

I might get flamed for this but I think Junior was a more talented baseball player. Obviously I have nothing to back that up with but the dreaded "what-if" and massive amounts of bias and homerism, but his career could have been legendary if he only took care of his body. He really didn't possess much of a work ethic at all, so to me, his numbers were accomplished based solely on his natural ability. Bonds just outworked him and to me, that's the difference between them. It's my opinion and I could be wrong, but Junior just seemed to do it all so effortlessly.

[Buckeyes_Doc]

Re: Barry Bonds or Ken Griffey Jr.?

The OP's question is "who would you rather take?" He isn't asking who is the best player, most likable, or who has the best numbers. Bonds clearly had the better numbers, there is no debating that. But I would rather take Griffey.

That is probably why I'm not a GM.

[SidVish]

Re: Barry Bonds or Ken Griffey Jr.?

Or some people just think Griffey was the better player. It's just an opinion if that's what they think. Griffey was my idol but I'm not in that camp and would never use something silly like "his swing was so beautiful" to justify him being better than Bonds.

He'll win the poll because like you said, Bonds is generally disliked. But people who actually know the game know who the better player was, and that's tough as **** for me to admit.

I might get flamed for this but I think Junior was a more talented baseball player. Obviously I have nothing to back that up with but the dreaded "what-if" and massive amounts of bias and homerism, but his career could have been legendary if he only took care of his body. He really didn't possess much of a work ethic at all, so to me, his numbers were accomplished based solely on his natural ability. Bonds just outworked him and to me, that's the difference between them. It's my opinion and I could be wrong, but Junior just seemed to do it all so effortlessly.

People can think that but not much of an argument has been made. Bonds is the best player I have ever seen and it's not really close. The man has a career .444 OBP and was walked intentionally 688 times. 688....that's insane. The next closest guy is Hank Aaron at 293 times. Griffey is at 246. Pitchers were scared to pitch to him.

I'm not sure what to do with all the what-ifs in the thread because they don't hold any weight.

[12]

Re: Barry Bonds or Ken Griffey Jr.?

People can think that but not much of an argument has been made. Bonds is the best player I have ever seen and it's not really close. The man has a career .444 OBP and was walked intentionally 688 times. 688....that's insane. The next closest guy is Hank Aaron at 293 times. Griffey is at 246. Pitchers were scared to pitch to him.

I'm not sure what to do with all the what-ifs in the thread because they don't hold any weight.

You're right, they don't.

I'm not disagreeing with you, believe me. I've seen the arguments and debates and it's clear Bonds wins easily.