MLB Off-Topic

[kehlis]

Re: MLB Off-Topic

I find interesting, sickening, ridiculous and poignant that nobody cares that the Astros took that big fat steamy dump on legitimate competition for years on end and that the sign stealing is considered way more of an affront. Not only that but it their method got and gets CELEBRATED heavily. They were revered and praised. Books were written! This is the new way to build a sports team! All hail! Now they're being criticized by the very same people. Don't you think the level to which they stooped to snoop is directly related to their willingness to do what they already did?

I think the sign stuff is insane. The levels to which they went are....pathological, egregious, and comical. But losing on purpose is way, way, way worse and should be viewed as such.

One is literally breaking the rules of the game, the other isn't...

[dubcity]

Re: MLB Off-Topic

The interesting thing is if Houston was stealing signs at home in 2017, it didn’t help them...their home/road splits show them being better on the road.


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How do we know it didn't help them? What would their record have been without it?

[kehlis]

Re: MLB Off-Topic

How do we know it didn't help them? What would their record have been without it?

Oh it helped them:

https://www.barstoolsports.com/newyork/the-houston-astros-homeroad-splits-during-the-2017-postseason-are-laugh-out-loud-funny-and-you-might-need-to-take-away-their-title

The story from the Athletic indicated that this didn't start until some point during the season when players were struggling which could explain regular season splits.

[TheMatrix31]

Re: MLB Off-Topic

One is literally breaking the rules of the game, the other isn't...

Regular sign stealing isn't officially against the rules, is it?

Is there a specific line where it becomes "legally" against the rules?

Legitimate question, I don't know.

[Master Live 013]

Re: MLB Off-Topic

Before the 2019 season, MLB instituted new rules to clamp down on illegal sign stealing. Unsanctioned cameras between the foul poles were outlawed, an eight-second delay on in-house camera feeds was mandated, and an official sat in replay rooms off the dugout to monitor teams to try to prevent cheating.

https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/28078579/sources-mlb-contacts-astros-red-sox-sign-stealing-investigation-expands

I suppose the Astros could argue that it wasn't against the rules in 2017.

[Blzer]

Re: MLB Off-Topic

Regular sign stealing isn't officially against the rules, is it?

Is there a specific line where it becomes "legally" against the rules?

Legitimate question, I don't know.

I understand your question, but the answer isn't very easy to make mention of, because how do you legitimately stop someone from doing it? Tell the world to "close their eyes" while the third base coach delivers a sign? It's like counting cards: unless somebody (such as the opposition) can evidently point to deliberate actions in response to something you display, I just don't know what there can be against you. I've always felt in this "frowned upon" stage though that if it's clear you've picked signs and you're obvious about it that they will let you know by a warning shot at a hitter or something, like banging on a trash can in the dugout.

Remember, signs aren't a "rule" of the sport. What if the third base coach just said: "Bunt!" Whether or not the batter is supposed to bunt in that moment, is the defense not allowed to then come in in case of it? Would that be stealing a sign? I'm just playing devil's advocate here with an extreme level, but I hope you understand what I'm saying here. Sign stealing sometimes is only as good as how obvious the signs are to begin with, which is another "skill" in itself to work a dynamically-evolving system (change based on the number of outs or inning, things like that).

Anyway, earlier today I just had a Jeopardy clue about how "sign-stealing" was used in the 1950s using a telescope (they also alluded to the Apple watch as well). Crazy what lengths they go to. If you can do it naturally with the players in your dugout and the positions from which you can get a glimpse and pick them, more power to you. If you have to go by unnatural means, ehh that's bush league.

[kehlis]

Re: MLB Off-Topic

Regular sign stealing isn't officially against the rules, is it?

Is there a specific line where it becomes "legally" against the rules?

Legitimate question, I don't know.

This is from the story. I couldn't find the rule exactly but it was against the rule to use any electronics to gain a competitive advantage:

However, the Astros’ actions in 2017 were a violation of the rules even as written then: “Major League Baseball Regulations … prohibit the use of electronic equipment during games and state that no such equipment ‘may be used for the purpose of stealing signs or conveying information designed to give a Club an advantage,’” commissioner Rob Manfred said in a 2017 statement.

[Sportsforever]

Re: MLB Off-Topic

No one is going to strip anyone of titles; while I'm not saying the league should look away, I don't see this as the ground breaking/shocking revelation that most of you seem to think it is.

If you've read the book, the Echoing Green, it details the 1951 Giants using a very similar system in their comeback against the Brooklyn Dodgers that year. They had a man stationed in the CF scoreboard and a buzzer system; he would pick up the signs, buzz the dugout (once for fastball, twice for off speed, etc) and the dugout would relay to the hitter via verbal signal.

Furthermore, Christy Mathewson wrote in his book of a the Philadelphia Phillies in 1899 were caught with a very sophisticated system. A spy was placed in CF and would buzz a buzzer that was buried in the 3rd base coaches' box which buzz his foot and he'd relay it via verbal signals to the batter. It was only caught when during a game played after it rained the opponent noticed the 3rd base coach was standing with his foot in a puddle. They dug up the buzzer and the Phillies were caught!

Bottom line, this stuff isn't new...it has gone on forever, and if you get caught you pay the penalty, but no one is stripping anyone of titles, killing a franchise, etc.

[LambertandHam]

Re: MLB Off-Topic

Vera Clemente, widow of Pirates great Roberto Clemente has passed away at 78. She and her sons became a usual sight each year when the Pirates honored Roberto and his contributions to the team and charity. RIP.

[countryboy]

Re: MLB Off-Topic

RIP Vera Clemente


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[LambertandHam]

Re: MLB Off-Topic

Welp, that complicates things...

A high-ranking Houston Astros official asked scouts to spy on opponents' dugouts leading up to the 2017 postseason, hoping to steal signs and suggesting the potential use of cameras to do so, sources familiar with the request told ESPN.
The reaction among those who received an email from Kevin Goldstein, a special assistant to Astros general manager Jeff Luhnow, was mixed, sources told ESPN. Some were intrigued by the idea, sources who received the email said, while others were bothered by the thought of pointing cameras from the stands toward opposing teams' dugouts, a plan that could have earned them scorn within the scouting community if caught.

[Master Live 013]

Re: MLB Off-Topic

If Goldstein was the person who came up with the scheme then he is candidate #1 to get Shoeless'ed.

[Caulfield]

Re: MLB Off-Topic

If Goldstein was the person who came up with the scheme then he is candidate #1 to get Shoeless'ed.

lol the ultimate in damned if you do, damned if you dont:


try too hard to lose, blackballed for life.
try too hard to win, same lol

[ShowTyme15]

Re: MLB Off-Topic

https://www.12up.com/posts/suspicious-man-spotted-using-apparent-sign-stealing-tech-2017-world-series-01dsxsy0qe81

[Sportsforever]

Re: MLB Off-Topic

I read the email that people are saying is "damaging evidence" and I just don't see it...they asked their scouts to spy on other team's dugouts; uh, that should go without saying.

What am I missing? I seriously don't understand...