8/3 - 8/16 Game Discussion Thread

[SPTO]

Re: 8/3 - 8/16 Game Discussion Thread

The conspiracy the Yankees bullpen claimed he was positioned perfectly above the pitchers head and would keep his hands down for fastball and raise them above his head for offspeed.

This is not me saying I think they did it, just pointing out the claim.

I think the claim is ludicrous. I remember a few years ago the White Sox and Yanks complained about the same thing. MLB conducted an investigation and found no wrong doing.

Besides, how the hell are you going to find some random dude in a white shirt amongst 46,000 people?!

[kehlis]

Re: 8/3 - 8/16 Game Discussion Thread

I'm sure location might be just as important as the pitch type. Of course, if you're in the batter's box and a catcher isn't quiet enough, you can also hear which way he is shifting (probably not in an MLB ballpark with many fans, though).

But small things like folded arms vs. unfolded, hands on rails vs. not, etc. It's pretty simple to do. If you're at second base, you do the same kinds of things like subtle finger wiggles, closed grip, looking back at 2B or not, walking closed to the base line upright or leaned, etc. We all use this to gain an edge at the plate, and we do it with an incognito approach because... look... stealing signs is okay, it really is.

Getting caught doing it, however, is not okay. Do it without getting caught, and I think it should be a perfectly accepted practice. If you get caught (not suspected/accused, but actually noted), stop or you'll get reported or thrown at in the ribs. Period.

You won't get one player or coach to say it's okay to steal signs outside of the white lines with means outside of the parameters (binoculars) for example of what players on the field can do.

If a catcher isn't mixing up signs well enough and the runner on a second steals them that's fine and like you said expected, but no one will say it's okay to get a look at the signs from beyond the outfield wall.

[kehlis]

Re: 8/3 - 8/16 Game Discussion Thread

I think the claim is ludicrous. I remember a few years ago the White Sox and Yanks complained about the same thing. MLB conducted an investigation and found no wrong doing.



Besides, how the hell are you going to find some random dude in a white shirt amongst 46,000 people?!

Like I said, the claim was he was positioned rich above where the pitcher was. The Yankees who made that claim went to the seat the next day.


I'm with you, I think a guy holding his arms up every other pitch would have been easy to spot by MLB and certainly other visiting teams bullpens so I don't believe it either but the story they gave is actually plausible.

[Majingir]

Re: 8/3 - 8/16 Game Discussion Thread

I think the claim is ludicrous. I remember a few years ago the White Sox and Yanks complained about the same thing. MLB conducted an investigation and found no wrong doing.

Besides, how the hell are you going to find some random dude in a white shirt amongst 46,000 people?!

From what Yankees network seems to think, he's in the hotel room window.

But like you said, MLB conducted an investigation and nothing came of it. So unless some sort of actual evidence comes out, then this is really just teams complaining about nothing(in terms of "the man in white").

Baserunners stealing signs however, is allowed....so players shouldn't be complaining about that.

I think one of the big years of accusation happened around the time of Gibbons first run as Jays manager? Hillenbrand I think left the Jays on one of the worst notes in recent Jays history(maybe all time) and not even he said anything about this stuff(at least I don't think he ever did) so if he wasn't even like "Ya, they did it",and he left on such bad terms with the team,then surely that has to mean nothing ever did happen,cause I'm sure he'd have no problem throwing them under the bus if he hated them as much as he did.

[Blzer]

Re: 8/3 - 8/16 Game Discussion Thread

You won't get one player or coach to say it's okay to steal signs outside of the white lines with means outside of the parameters (binoculars) for example of what players on the field can do.

If a catcher isn't mixing up signs well enough and the runner on a second steals them that's fine and like you said expected, but no one will say it's okay to get a look at the signs from beyond the outfield wall.

I don't know if there's a way to reword what it is I'm saying, but I'm hoping I can get interpreted a little bit differently.

Here's what I mean: this isn't the same as not getting caught taking PED's. Sign-stealing isn't illegal. The reason signs were invented (and why some are very complex or have things like closes, wipe-offs, intents for later pitches, etc.) is so the other team doesn't know what you're doing. Otherwise people would yell things like "FASTBALL!", "BUNT!", "PICKOFF!", "STEAL!", etc.

Actually, come to think of it, as a player while I would be more than happy to know what's coming, if a catcher yelled that it would be harder for me to decide, "Hmm, should I not believe him? Or is this one of those 'If think against what he said and then it happens, I'm going to be even more messed up'?" That's why I always hated when pitchers shook off... now while I'm playing a guessing game with how the catcher is calling their game, I suddenly am uncertain what the pitcher wanted to go to instead.

Anyway, yes I am completely for sign-stealing if you're not caught. A player or manager won't go on record saying that it's okay, but if they had that advantage, wanted it, didn't get caught, and it didn't cost them much, they might consider keeping that option on the table. A fan out in center field? Ehh, that's kind of pushing it. I'd rather it be between the lines with my players only, and I think that's what you were trying to say as well. But if you're caught doing it, you shouldn't be stealing signs.

My message is a little bit contradictory. I'd encourage other teams to try and steal our signs, but in the end I clearly should not know whether or not they are, because if they're caught that means I'm not okay with it. And no, suspecting it because "There's no way he should have been able to sit on that pitch" is not evidence of a team stealing signs. I coach softball and used to send players stealing because I suspected a change-up was coming, yet I didn't steal a single sign. A coach once accused me of it, and all I had to say was, "You're predictable, and standing where I am I can't see you or your catcher, plus we give the signs before the batter steps in the box and there is no verbal cue." You can't suspect, you have to know for sure. And if you know for sure, then people are stealing signs wrong, because you really shouldn't be caught doing it.

But yes, I fully permit it myself, and I think most organizations feel the same way (again, probably more so between the lines). If it wasn't an issue, then people wouldn't try so hard to hide them. That's my justification right there. Just remember that stealing signs is not illegal. Hell, signs aren't even a part of the rules. Do you think that every pitcher who covers his mouth with his glove is angry at a batter if he's trying to pick apart the words that he says? Ask Will Clark, his home run off Maddux is the very reason pitchers do it today when he saw "fastball" mouthed. It's just a part of the sport, and both sides acknowledge it. Just. Don't. Get. Caught. There are consequences if you do.

In the end, I think you and I are in agreement in that stealing signs should be probably just by the players themselves. You extend outside of that and have a scoreboard operator be able to flash a pixel light when he sees the signs on TV? That's pretty messed up, even if you're not caught. Find ways to do it without the... the home field advantage, say.

[kehlis]

Re: 8/3 - 8/16 Game Discussion Thread

I don't know if there's a way to reword what it is I'm saying, but I'm hoping I can get interpreted a little bit differently.

Here's what I mean: this isn't the same as not getting caught taking PED's. Sign-stealing isn't illegal. The reason signs were invented (and why some are very complex or have things like closes, wipe-offs, intents for later pitches, etc.) is so the other team doesn't know what you're doing. Otherwise people would yell things like "FASTBALL!", "BUNT!", "PICKOFF!", "STEAL!", etc.

Actually, come to think of it, as a player while I would be more than happy to know what's coming, if a catcher yelled that it would be harder for me to decide, "Hmm, should I not believe him? Or is this one of those 'If think against what he said and then it happens, I'm going to be even more messed up'?" That's why I always hated when pitchers shook off... now while I'm playing a guessing game with how the catcher is calling their game, I suddenly am uncertain what the pitcher wanted to go to instead.

Anyway, yes I am completely for sign-stealing if you're not caught. A player or manager won't go on record saying that it's okay, but if they had that advantage, wanted it, didn't get caught, and it didn't cost them much, they would do it to. A fan out in center field? Ehh, that's kind of pushing it. I'd rather it be between the lines with my players only, and I think that's what you were trying to say as well. But if you're caught doing it, you shouldn't be stealing signs.

My message is a little bit contradictory. I'd encourage other teams to try and steal our signs, but in the end I clearly should not know whether or not they are, because if they're caught that means I'm not okay with it. And no, suspecting it because "There's no way he should have been able to sit on that pitch" is not evidence of a team stealing signs. I coach softball and used to send players stealing because I suspected a change-up was coming, yet I didn't steal a single sign. A coach once accused me of it, and all I had to say was, "You're predictable, and standing where I am I can't see you or your catcher, plus we give the signs before the batter steps in the box and there is no verbal cue." You can't suspect, you have to know for sure. And if you know for sure, then people are stealing signs wrong, because you really shouldn't be caught doing it.

But yes, I fully permit it myself, and I think most organizations feel the same way (again, probably more so between the lines). If it wasn't an issue, then people wouldn't try so hard to hide them. That's my justification right there. Just remember that stealing signs is not illegal.

Yea they are two different types of cheating with two different types of consequences.

One gets you or your teammates thrown at whereas this would have been punishable by the MLB as it absolutely is illegal.

[Sportsforever]

Re: 8/3 - 8/16 Game Discussion Thread

You all realize that the whole sign stealing thing has already been done and done successfully? The 1951 Giants did it the entire second half and had a guy in CF with a spyglass who would then relay the pitch type via signal to the dugout. Not saying the Blue Jays are doing it, but my point is if it's already been done back in 1951 than pulling it off in 2015 would be a piece of cake.

[Blzer]

Re: 8/3 - 8/16 Game Discussion Thread

Yea they are two different types of cheating with two different types of consequences.

One gets you or your teammates thrown at whereas this would have been punishable by the MLB as it absolutely is illegal.

I think you're right. I think the fan thing is illegal. I wouldn't do that either. I was more so referencing the player on second base, not the fan. I think the fan thing is pretty bad as well.

[PhilliesFan13]

Re: 8/3 - 8/16 Game Discussion Thread

Bryan Mitchell struck in the face with a line drive during the Yankees game tonight. So scary to see. This is happening more and more lately.