Best CF ever ?

[Chewingthehardfacts]

Re: Best CF ever ?

Willie Mays

[dce1228]

Re: Best CF ever ?

Unfortunately the argument over the negro leagues swings both ways. Correct that the stats prior to full integration of the NL and AL have to be questioned somewhat because only whites were allowed to play - but so do the stats of the Negro Leaguers who didnt have to face the Christy Matthewsons of the game.

Ruth or Gibson, Paige or Johnson, Cobb or Bell. We'll never know, but its interesting to think about, as long as you give credence to the idea that the door swings both ways, and both leagues were watered down by segregation.

I understand what you're saying about the door swinging both ways, but it's kind of a moot point (not my point at all actually) since I think Ruth is the greatest player of all time and I'm keeping in mind he never faced (on his statistical record) the great pitchers of the Negro Leauge.

Unfortunately the door that doesn't swing both ways is the perception we have of the quality of play in the Negro Leagues prior to desegregation-- evidenced in the fact Oscar Charleston made absolutely no list but my own. And I want to state I'm not crying racism here since so many have listed Mays as their top guy, I just think it's a shame to lose those players, like Charleston, not enabled to play in the Major Leauges.

One thing that always gets my attention is how in the final years of the negro leagues (within 7 years) Jackie Robinson, Willie Mays, Hank Aaron, Ernie Banks & Roy Campanella, all players who rank in just about everyone's top 100 switched to the Majot Leagues-- now that's just 5 players and doesn't include players like Frank Robinson or Bob Gibson who were 10 years away from debuting... but how many negro league players do we know about from the previous 50 or so years?? How many can we all name off the tops of our heads?? And other than Satchel Paige and Josh Gibson, how many get consistant mention in the best players' ever debate??

[dce1228]

Re: Best CF ever ?

Unfortunately the argument over the negro leagues swings both ways. Correct that the stats prior to full integration of the NL and AL have to be questioned somewhat because only whites were allowed to play - but so do the stats of the Negro Leaguers who didnt have to face the Christy Matthewsons of the game.

Ruth or Gibson, Paige or Johnson, Cobb or Bell. We'll never know, but its interesting to think about, as long as you give credence to the idea that the door swings both ways, and both leagues were watered down by segregation.

I understand what you're saying about the door swinging both ways, but it's kind of a moot point (not my point at all actually) since I think Ruth is the greatest player of all time and I'm keeping in mind he never faced (on his statistical record) the great pitchers of the Negro Leauge.

Unfortunately the door that doesn't swing both ways is the perception we have of the quality of play in the Negro Leagues prior to desegregation-- evidenced in the fact Oscar Charleston made absolutely no list but my own. And I want to state I'm not crying racism here since so many have listed Mays as their top guy, I just think it's a shame to lose those players, like Charleston, not enabled to play in the Major Leauges.

One thing that always gets my attention is how in the final years of the negro leagues (within 7 years) Jackie Robinson, Willie Mays, Hank Aaron, Ernie Banks & Roy Campanella, all players who rank in just about everyone's top 100 switched to the Majot Leagues-- now that's just 5 players and doesn't include players like Frank Robinson or Bob Gibson who were 10 years away from debuting... but how many negro league players do we know about from the previous 50 or so years?? How many can we all name off the tops of our heads?? And other than Satchel Paige and Josh Gibson, how many get consistant mention in the best players' ever debate??

[bergie56]

Re: Best CF ever ?

I am going to go with Willie Mays myself but I feel that if Griffey didnt get plagued with injuries he would be considered it.

[bergie56]

Re: Best CF ever ?

I am going to go with Willie Mays myself but I feel that if Griffey didnt get plagued with injuries he would be considered it.

[keRplunK]

Re: Best CF ever ?

Ken Griffey Jr in 1997.

[keRplunK]

Re: Best CF ever ?

Ken Griffey Jr in 1997.

[TheLetterZ]

Re: Best CF ever ?

I'm surprised not to have seen his name yet, but the greatest centerfielder of all time also happens to be the greatest negro league player of all time. Oscar Charleston. He was just as good a hitter as Ruth was (looked remarkably similar too, thin legs barrel-chested) but could bunt and steal bases like Cobb, and play centerfield like Tris Speaker. Many consider him the best player ever, but I give the nod to Ruth because Ruth also could pitch.

Mays and Cobb are a close tie for second as far as centerfielders, but you also have to include DiMaggio, Mantle and Tris Speaker in the conversation. All of these men are in the top 15 players ever. Griffey Jr. would be if he could have stayed healthy.

I have Charleston #3 behind Cobb and Mays. I also have trouble putting him over Tris Speaker. I just can't give him the nod over them because I don't have anything concrete on his career. Similar to how I can't put Josh Gibson over Berra and Bench.

[TheLetterZ]

Re: Best CF ever ?

I'm surprised not to have seen his name yet, but the greatest centerfielder of all time also happens to be the greatest negro league player of all time. Oscar Charleston. He was just as good a hitter as Ruth was (looked remarkably similar too, thin legs barrel-chested) but could bunt and steal bases like Cobb, and play centerfield like Tris Speaker. Many consider him the best player ever, but I give the nod to Ruth because Ruth also could pitch.

Mays and Cobb are a close tie for second as far as centerfielders, but you also have to include DiMaggio, Mantle and Tris Speaker in the conversation. All of these men are in the top 15 players ever. Griffey Jr. would be if he could have stayed healthy.

I have Charleston #3 behind Cobb and Mays. I also have trouble putting him over Tris Speaker. I just can't give him the nod over them because I don't have anything concrete on his career. Similar to how I can't put Josh Gibson over Berra and Bench.

[MemphisRaines]

Re: Best CF ever ?

1.Mays
2.Cobb
3.Speaker
4.Mantle
5.DiMaggio

[MemphisRaines]

Re: Best CF ever ?

1.Mays
2.Cobb
3.Speaker
4.Mantle
5.DiMaggio

[Nivek]

Re: Best CF ever ?

All around = Mays
Pure Hitter = Cobb (his career batting average will NEVER be topped...it's a shame he was a rascist ******* b/c he would be more celebrated to this day.)

[Nivek]

Re: Best CF ever ?

All around = Mays
Pure Hitter = Cobb (his career batting average will NEVER be topped...it's a shame he was a rascist ******* b/c he would be more celebrated to this day.)

[dce1228]

Re: Best CF ever ?

I have Charleston #3 behind Cobb and Mays. I also have trouble putting him over Tris Speaker. I just can't give him the nod over them because I don't have anything concrete on his career. Similar to how I can't put Josh Gibson over Berra and Bench.

I hate to sound like a wet blanket, but saying there isn't anything concrete as far as statistical records is an ethnocentric statement. The Negro League way of keeping statistics, while different from the MLB way, is hardly inferior simply because it's different. And besides, to hold this against players who WERE NOT ALLOWED to play in the MLB is not only ludicrous but cruel.

You can make the argument that Cobb and Mays were as good as Charleston, but Josh Gibson was hands down the greatest catcher, if not the greatest right-handed hitter, EVER. There were plenty of witnesses who saw him play, both white and black, and when you're compared to Babe Ruth there's little left to be discerned. Would you compare Bench or Berra to Ruth?

In life we learn from our mistakes. I'm not saying this to unearth guilt or start a flame war, but when your system of keeping statistics is exclusive and therefore flawed, how can you consider it concrete. I take the words of the people who were actually there to heart, and Josh Gibson is the greatest catcher ever.

[dce1228]

Re: Best CF ever ?

I have Charleston #3 behind Cobb and Mays. I also have trouble putting him over Tris Speaker. I just can't give him the nod over them because I don't have anything concrete on his career. Similar to how I can't put Josh Gibson over Berra and Bench.

I hate to sound like a wet blanket, but saying there isn't anything concrete as far as statistical records is an ethnocentric statement. The Negro League way of keeping statistics, while different from the MLB way, is hardly inferior simply because it's different. And besides, to hold this against players who WERE NOT ALLOWED to play in the MLB is not only ludicrous but cruel.

You can make the argument that Cobb and Mays were as good as Charleston, but Josh Gibson was hands down the greatest catcher, if not the greatest right-handed hitter, EVER. There were plenty of witnesses who saw him play, both white and black, and when you're compared to Babe Ruth there's little left to be discerned. Would you compare Bench or Berra to Ruth?

In life we learn from our mistakes. I'm not saying this to unearth guilt or start a flame war, but when your system of keeping statistics is exclusive and therefore flawed, how can you consider it concrete. I take the words of the people who were actually there to heart, and Josh Gibson is the greatest catcher ever.