Steroids and HOF votes?

[USCTrojan83]

Re: Steroids and HOF votes?

I never said that Bonds shouldn't be in the HOF, I just do not recognize any HR record that he sets as legitimate.

Much like the world did not recognize Ben Johnson's 100m world record back in 1988.

Agreed...

But there are people on here that do...sometimes just looking at what is here now and not what has happened before....Not trying to single you out

[UALKOEBS]

Re: Steroids and HOF votes?

Bond's did have 3 mvp's before the juice and I have heard that anyone w/3 or more has been inducted into the hall, so I suppose he would have made it w/or w/out the help. I must have read it somewhere wrong about raffy! I could have sworn I read that he barely reached 20 hr's until mid/late 90's? Maybe he just didn't use as much or as often as bonds? I would guess these guys started using after an injury and saw that it helped them heal much faster. Sort of my feeling about sosa and the corked bat issue. I think he came off the dl and struggled and needed a ego boost so he accidently grabbed the corked bat. LOL McGwire was struggling barely reaching .200 I think? Then the very next year he exploded like never before! I think once these guys tried them they couldn't stop. Not too mention the extra $$$$ they got for bashing like they did. Sosa was also struggling to achieve his potential and stick with a club, and then all of a sudden he is a cult power figure in and outside of chicago!(2nd time around)

[UALKOEBS]

Re: Steroids and HOF votes?

Bond's did have 3 mvp's before the juice and I have heard that anyone w/3 or more has been inducted into the hall, so I suppose he would have made it w/or w/out the help. I must have read it somewhere wrong about raffy! I could have sworn I read that he barely reached 20 hr's until mid/late 90's? Maybe he just didn't use as much or as often as bonds? I would guess these guys started using after an injury and saw that it helped them heal much faster. Sort of my feeling about sosa and the corked bat issue. I think he came off the dl and struggled and needed a ego boost so he accidently grabbed the corked bat. LOL McGwire was struggling barely reaching .200 I think? Then the very next year he exploded like never before! I think once these guys tried them they couldn't stop. Not too mention the extra $$$$ they got for bashing like they did. Sosa was also struggling to achieve his potential and stick with a club, and then all of a sudden he is a cult power figure in and outside of chicago!(2nd time around)

[mjb2124]

Re: Steroids and HOF votes?

McGwire was struggling barely reaching .200 I think? Then the very next year he exploded like never before!

People keep forgetting McGwires rookie year where he hit 49 HR's and batted .289 with a .370 OBP. It's not like he never hit before the "steroid period".

He had one very bad year in 1991 where he hit .201, .330 OBP and 22 HR, 75 RBI. 1992 was the year after and it was hardly his best year. His rookie season was his best until his 66 HR season.

Batting average is also the single worst stat to determine a players worth. It's almost meaningless. OBP and OPS are much more appropriate.

Anyhow, Mac hit a lot of HR's before the alleged time that he took steroids (mid 90's). Did he hit more after the mid 90's? Definately.

1986-1995 - 308 HR's (3 HR's in 1986 in 53 AB's)
1996-2001 - 275 HR's

Anyhow, much can be made of this. IMO there are a lot of players that have benefitted from the use of 'roids in MLB. Bonds, McGwire and Giambi are taking the brunt of it right now, but there are many more IMO.

Personally I wouldn't vote for either Mac or Bonds for the HOF. However, that's just me. They aren't the first, nor will they be the last to cheat in baseball.

[mjb2124]

Re: Steroids and HOF votes?

McGwire was struggling barely reaching .200 I think? Then the very next year he exploded like never before!

People keep forgetting McGwires rookie year where he hit 49 HR's and batted .289 with a .370 OBP. It's not like he never hit before the "steroid period".

He had one very bad year in 1991 where he hit .201, .330 OBP and 22 HR, 75 RBI. 1992 was the year after and it was hardly his best year. His rookie season was his best until his 66 HR season.

Batting average is also the single worst stat to determine a players worth. It's almost meaningless. OBP and OPS are much more appropriate.

Anyhow, Mac hit a lot of HR's before the alleged time that he took steroids (mid 90's). Did he hit more after the mid 90's? Definately.

1986-1995 - 308 HR's (3 HR's in 1986 in 53 AB's)
1996-2001 - 275 HR's

Anyhow, much can be made of this. IMO there are a lot of players that have benefitted from the use of 'roids in MLB. Bonds, McGwire and Giambi are taking the brunt of it right now, but there are many more IMO.

Personally I wouldn't vote for either Mac or Bonds for the HOF. However, that's just me. They aren't the first, nor will they be the last to cheat in baseball.

[UALKOEBS]

Re: Steroids and HOF votes?

This is getting to be kind of a dead horse here but:

It looks like maybe as early as 93 some of these guys were introduced to the wonder clear!

R. Palmeiro's #'s (hr's)
3-14-8-8-14-26-22 then in 1993 he jumped to 37! then injuries hit him in 94' so back to 23(92'full season only 22!) then on with the bashing!! 39-39-38-43(34yrs old)-47-39-47-43-38(40yrs old).

S. Sosa's #'s (hr's)
3-1-15-10-8 and then came 1993! 33hrs! and then the rest is history with him hitting check swing waveland shots.

M. McGwire was hurt in 93'-94' season's but of course after that he became Babe Ruth. He did hit 42 homers in 1992 on 20 fewer games(not AB's) than the yr before where he hit a mere 22! He was on the west coast so maybe he got it a year earlier..j/k

B. Bonds #'s (hr's)
16-25-24-19-33-25-34 and again here it is 1993> 46 hr's!! Now his first few yrs were very solid numbers but HOF? not solely on homers that is for sure! He was a great fielder etc.. but on hr's alone NOWAY a HOF hitter. But he was entering his prime so I can see this being a realistic jump for a real great hitter like he was! But it is sort of strange to see 1993 how the hr's leaped!
I'm going to say that if bonds would have stayed his normal self 190lbs etc.. He would have made a very good case for the HOF. Now obviously if he did not use (yeah right) steroids at all then he is the greatest player of all Time!

[UALKOEBS]

Re: Steroids and HOF votes?

This is getting to be kind of a dead horse here but:

It looks like maybe as early as 93 some of these guys were introduced to the wonder clear!

R. Palmeiro's #'s (hr's)
3-14-8-8-14-26-22 then in 1993 he jumped to 37! then injuries hit him in 94' so back to 23(92'full season only 22!) then on with the bashing!! 39-39-38-43(34yrs old)-47-39-47-43-38(40yrs old).

S. Sosa's #'s (hr's)
3-1-15-10-8 and then came 1993! 33hrs! and then the rest is history with him hitting check swing waveland shots.

M. McGwire was hurt in 93'-94' season's but of course after that he became Babe Ruth. He did hit 42 homers in 1992 on 20 fewer games(not AB's) than the yr before where he hit a mere 22! He was on the west coast so maybe he got it a year earlier..j/k

B. Bonds #'s (hr's)
16-25-24-19-33-25-34 and again here it is 1993> 46 hr's!! Now his first few yrs were very solid numbers but HOF? not solely on homers that is for sure! He was a great fielder etc.. but on hr's alone NOWAY a HOF hitter. But he was entering his prime so I can see this being a realistic jump for a real great hitter like he was! But it is sort of strange to see 1993 how the hr's leaped!
I'm going to say that if bonds would have stayed his normal self 190lbs etc.. He would have made a very good case for the HOF. Now obviously if he did not use (yeah right) steroids at all then he is the greatest player of all Time!

[SportsTop]

Re: Steroids and HOF votes?

Not true. He did have 1 very poor year (1991), but his BA (BA is a very poor stat IMO) was around the .250 mark before the alleged steroid use.

IMO both are guility and both should be banished from the HOF. That's not going to happen though...

joeboo......we finally disagree on something.

Steroid use was not against baseball policy while these players used them. Plain and simple. I understand they were against the law, but many players have violated many laws during their playing times and that never stopped anyone.

Baseball has a history of:

Cocaine abuse
Alcohol abuse (during prohibition)
Gambling (not on baseball)

And let's not forget the moral issues as well:

Womanizing
Adultery

The list goes on and on. While I don't agree with steroid use/abuse, you can't hold something over a players head when it wasn't against the games set of rules.

[SportsTop]

Re: Steroids and HOF votes?

Not true. He did have 1 very poor year (1991), but his BA (BA is a very poor stat IMO) was around the .250 mark before the alleged steroid use.

IMO both are guility and both should be banished from the HOF. That's not going to happen though...

joeboo......we finally disagree on something.

Steroid use was not against baseball policy while these players used them. Plain and simple. I understand they were against the law, but many players have violated many laws during their playing times and that never stopped anyone.

Baseball has a history of:

Cocaine abuse
Alcohol abuse (during prohibition)
Gambling (not on baseball)

And let's not forget the moral issues as well:

Womanizing
Adultery

The list goes on and on. While I don't agree with steroid use/abuse, you can't hold something over a players head when it wasn't against the games set of rules.

[UALKOEBS]

Re: Steroids and HOF votes?

As far as palmeiro goes, I am going to guess that he WAS juicing but I have no problem w/people saying he wasn't. Unlike People defending mac or sosa/bonds. It will be interesting to see just how well mr Palmeiro does this yr! I would go on a limb and speculate that he will FALL off the table mysteriously. Not to beat my chest but I predicted Bonds would come up with all kinds of excuses this yr and the rest of his career for why now he can't launch out 50 hr's a yr anymore, mainly injuries.. Looks like I may be correct on this hunch. I think he will beat Ruths, but fall short for some reason on Aaron's. I don't know him, but I sense that he is a bit of a racist and would love nothing more than to beat a white legend! He may have too much respect for all that aaron went through to get his, or maybe just not enough juice left in the tank for it!

[UALKOEBS]

Re: Steroids and HOF votes?

As far as palmeiro goes, I am going to guess that he WAS juicing but I have no problem w/people saying he wasn't. Unlike People defending mac or sosa/bonds. It will be interesting to see just how well mr Palmeiro does this yr! I would go on a limb and speculate that he will FALL off the table mysteriously. Not to beat my chest but I predicted Bonds would come up with all kinds of excuses this yr and the rest of his career for why now he can't launch out 50 hr's a yr anymore, mainly injuries.. Looks like I may be correct on this hunch. I think he will beat Ruths, but fall short for some reason on Aaron's. I don't know him, but I sense that he is a bit of a racist and would love nothing more than to beat a white legend! He may have too much respect for all that aaron went through to get his, or maybe just not enough juice left in the tank for it!

[UALKOEBS]

Re: Steroids and HOF votes?

joeboo......we finally disagree on something.

Steroid use was not against baseball policy while these players used them. Plain and simple. I understand they were against the law, but many players have violated many laws during their playing times and that never stopped anyone.

Baseball has a history of:

Cocaine abuse
Alcohol abuse (during prohibition)
Gambling (not on baseball)

And let's not forget the moral issues as well:

Womanizing
Adultery

The list goes on and on. While I don't agree with steroid use/abuse, you can't hold something over a players head when it wasn't against the games set of rules.

You brought up a good point, Womanizing and adultery!= lies and character flaws. Too an extent... this = Mr Homerun aka- Barry Bonds. cheated his taxes, and wife and the game he was raised in.

[UALKOEBS]

Re: Steroids and HOF votes?

joeboo......we finally disagree on something.

Steroid use was not against baseball policy while these players used them. Plain and simple. I understand they were against the law, but many players have violated many laws during their playing times and that never stopped anyone.

Baseball has a history of:

Cocaine abuse
Alcohol abuse (during prohibition)
Gambling (not on baseball)

And let's not forget the moral issues as well:

Womanizing
Adultery

The list goes on and on. While I don't agree with steroid use/abuse, you can't hold something over a players head when it wasn't against the games set of rules.

You brought up a good point, Womanizing and adultery!= lies and character flaws. Too an extent... this = Mr Homerun aka- Barry Bonds. cheated his taxes, and wife and the game he was raised in.

[SportsTop]

Re: Steroids and HOF votes?

You brought up a good point, Womanizing and adultery!= lies and character flaws. Too an extent... this = Mr Homerun aka- Barry Bonds. cheated his taxes, and wife and the game he was raised in.

And none of that has any bearing on his status among the baseball greats.

Babe Ruth
Ty Cobb
Mickey Mantle
Ted Williams

You know what they have in common? They are all guilty of one or more of the things I mentioned above. And that is just a drop in an ocean full of guilty players.

[SportsTop]

Re: Steroids and HOF votes?

You brought up a good point, Womanizing and adultery!= lies and character flaws. Too an extent... this = Mr Homerun aka- Barry Bonds. cheated his taxes, and wife and the game he was raised in.

And none of that has any bearing on his status among the baseball greats.

Babe Ruth
Ty Cobb
Mickey Mantle
Ted Williams

You know what they have in common? They are all guilty of one or more of the things I mentioned above. And that is just a drop in an ocean full of guilty players.