Defensive Settings Completely Removed from Next-Gen.

[dipset2050]

Re: Defensive Settings Completely Removed from Next-Gen.

if that's indeed the case, then please sign me up for a dev insight on it (and please let it be as instructional as possible!).

I'll definitely write something up. Not on my tablet. Gotta get my PC from the condo. Someone though already alluded to what they do. I'll say this. I do not use the same POEs consistently all game and I play defense to force shots over outstretched hands. I also use the new "specific player" double team against dominant post players if I feel my player cannot guard the opponent one on one. I always choose a player cross court or the weakest shooter. Lastly, bc I do these things, I don't need to use the Nothing inside POE BC to me, I've noticed that when you use a POE, you're basically selling out on doing that one thing. Well, unless I'm getting destroyed in the post, I don't need to sell out on it playing the way I do. But I'll definitely write something tomorrow. The only POE I do t understand Shoot at Will. I also don't know what the Freelance offensive set entails. Other than that, I know the risk/reward and responsible usage of each POE.

Play Physical is severely powerful with a defensive team, I'll tell you that.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

[Kaanyr Vhok]

Re: Defensive Settings Completely Removed from Next-Gen.

I can't be the only person that not only feels the POEs are effective but deem the previous defensive settings to be unnecessary. I see where 2K is going with this and I love it. I don't think any of you are going to like having the old system back BC you didn't like the old system when you had it! That's the pont they're trying to make. The system now is great, not perfect, but superior to thee previous one. There are ways to deal with everything in this game, including P&R with POE. In the NBA, an offense is going to get the better of a defense regardless of scheme eventually so to answer the previous post, if you have a team with to penetrators and three shooter, well you gotta keep the man in front of you. Simple enough. Make people take and make contested jumpers. I think the bigger problem is player movement but that has been indicated as being addressed to a degree. I hope 2K simply explains how POEs work in detail so people can use them. I'm 85% sure how they work so maybe that's why I'm having more success and do not want anything changed.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

Coaching settings yes but not defensive settings.

Defensive settings had 1000s of potential combinations. POE had 40 or so depending on how you flexed it. Maybe more if you consider the amount of players you can run plays through or key on but not 1000s. Actually I think know defensive settings offered more than 1000s of combinations. Id have to do some exponent math for that one.

I cant replicate Trail Blazer defense with POEs. The closest I can get is to flex conservative with limit perimeter but that doesnt factor how they like to camp Lopez on the offensive glass, how he sags off of even decent shooters or how Matthews and Batum might gamble while others are playing conservative. You cant change them on the fly. If its a dead short shot clock situation I probably wont have time to shift to guard perimeter.

[Sundown]

Re: Defensive Settings Completely Removed from Next-Gen.

I can't be the only person that not only feels the POEs are effective but deem the previous defensive settings to be unnecessary. I see where 2K is going with this and I love it. I don't think any of you are going to like having the old system back BC you didn't like the old system when you had it! That's the pont they're trying to make. The system now is great, not perfect, but superior to thee previous one. There are ways to deal with everything in this game, including P&R with POE. In the NBA, an offense is going to get the better of a defense regardless of scheme eventually so to answer the previous post, if you have a team with to penetrators and three shooter, well you gotta keep the man in front of you. Simple enough. Make people take and make contested jumpers. I think the bigger problem is player movement but that has been indicated as being addressed to a degree. I hope 2K simply explains how POEs work in detail so people can use them. I'm 85% sure how they work so maybe that's why I'm having more success and do not want anything changed.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

"Schemes don't always work in the NBA, and I don't care because POEs work fine for me" is not sufficient reason to remove in-depth defensive settings for players that actually care about strategic depth, realism, and simulation.

I'm pretty sure the defensive masterminds of the NBA don't just say, "stay in front or your man or something, and we'll defend threes when they shoot them I guess." They scout each player and craft hedges, switches, and whether to go over and under depending on scouting report and game situation.

Sim players want to be able to do that. You already have your somewhat simplistic and useful POEs. That's great. They should be kept in and improved. But why would you want realism kept away from those who study the game more closely?

[keshunleon]

Re: Defensive Settings Completely Removed from Next-Gen.

Defensive settings are a must!

Going over or under a screen for different players should be determined by the user.

I will guard Marcus Teague different from Jeff Teague on screens and hedge them different too.

If POE will allow us to do that then fix POE.

Limit perimeter shots is good but I want to be able to choose who not to guard up close.

Prime example Bulls vs Lakers:
Phil Jackson had Pippen guard Magic full court and up close the entire game.

Greg Pop had Leonard sag off LBJ to make him shoot jumpers the entire series.

I mainly play tight on non dribbling perimeter players and great shooters: players like Novak can't dribble or don't you want to play tight to take him out the game.


If POE will allow this then get rid of defensive settings but I also would like 2K to get rid of some of the offensive advantages then.

[Kaanyr Vhok]

Re: Defensive Settings Completely Removed from Next-Gen.

LD2k, thanks for dropping in. That would be great. Most of us are still unsure what each POE actually does and whether they're working correctly.

Players added PLAY TIGHT to every player because PLAY TIGHT was overpowered.

Tight coverage should allow for easier driving with fast or good ball handlers on-ball and allow for more cuts off-ball, especially against less capable defenders.

The downside to playing TIGHT in real life is allowing for easy dribble penetration and cuts, which isn't always the case in 2K. Playing TIGHT on small and power forwards with no regard to their actual shooting ability should also cause massive defensive spacing issues and worse interior and post defense. Of course, this only works if defenders do not recover at unrealistically fast speeds.

In addition, playing TIGHT should result more fatigue for the defender especially if a lot of screen plays are run or if the offensive players are active.

I believe the correct solution isn't to remove Defensive Settings in favor of a less realistic system where you're simply not allowed to PLAY TIGHT on everyone, but rather to reward/punish such a strategy realistically.

Essentially, taking away Defensive Settings because POEs are more limiting and thus "play better" is fixing an un-sim problem with an even more un-sim problem.

This solution is equivalent to removing ball screens because shooters are already too good, or taking away the ability to intentionally foul because free throws percentages are too low.


I do hope 2K doesn't justify removing in-depth simulation elements from 2K because it seems to play better with their removal rather than balancing them properly.

Most human players are one-dimensional in their offense, so it may feel like games are competitive because you can select the POE to match the thing they're doing over and over. When they eventually adjust, you can switch to the new appropriate POE. This seems mildly strategic, but it's more playing checkers than "chess", really. I suspect POEs would not be as useful against someone who knows their team's diverse offensive options well and can vary their offense play to play. And in either case, POEs alone are WAY less interesting and have WAY less strategic possibilities than Defensive Settings (when they are implemented correctly so that TIGHT is not always the best option).

POEs make my defensive strategizing more one dimensional than ever, especially offline, where many of us spend much more time.

Every team has both outside and inside options. Proper defensive strategizing isn't to simply be reactive limit all outside shots for awhile and switch to limiting inside shots when they opposing team starts driving. Proper defensive scheme takes into account each opposing player's strengths and weaknesses and what type of help defense they need, won't need, and where that help defense can come from.

POEs allow none of that and we're forced to live with what the AI chooses in terms of doubles, pick and roll defense, hedges, coverage-- and its impact to gameplay is doubly felt when it is not clear how a player should be guarded (a mediocre or streaky shooter getting hot or cold for example). It is here where we as players can strategize and make judgement calls, but this aspect of the game is completely taken away from us.

The result is a game where if POEs are working, you're relatively disengaged because you've selected one of 8 drop down items on a list and don't have to think about it for awhile. If they are not working--because you're playing a team that has both various offensive options meant to work together to stretch defenses-- you are unable to exploit weaknesses and take away strengths of EACH INDIVIDUAL PLAYER.

So in summary, although the addition of POEs are great in concept, it is NOT AT ALL an acceptable replacement to Defensive Settings because they take away realistic NBA defensive scheming away from us and because they provide much less strategic depth. This is going to sound a bit harsh, but 2K CANNOT be considered a serious basketball simulation if detailed and realistic strategizing is removed from one side of the ball entirely, just as 2K wouldn't be considered a sim if plays were removed on the offensive end.

If there are balance problems with these options, then I feel they should be balanced rather than removed-- otherwise, it is a bandaid fix that's less fun, less engaging, and causes more problems down the line while masking foundational issues, which is what some of us are already seeing.

Play Tight didnt feel overpowered to me.
Deny defended the three better off ball and onball I preferred auto so the CPU would read context. I only used Play Tight onball when I faced guards who couldnt dribble. Loose or Sag Off did feel underpowered offball.

[mythreesons]

Re: Defensive Settings Completely Removed from Next-Gen.

PLEASE don't let this thread die... I keep popping in periodically because I don't want this thing to get buried and forgotten.

LD2K,
I'm counting on you!

[eko718]

Re: Defensive Settings Completely Removed from Next-Gen.

Feel free to put together ideal defensive strat's and settings.

Take old system and POE into account. Will pass it on to the gameplay dev's.

The same settings that were available in current gen are a start.

Double Team(Always, Never, In Post, On Drive, Manual)
On-Ball(Sag Off, Moderate, Play Tight, Manual)
Off-Ball(Sag Off, Moderate, Play Tight, Deny Ball, Manual)
Screen(Go Over, Go Under, Switch, Auto)
Hedge(No Hedge, Soft Hedge, Hard Hedge, Double, Auto)

Points of Emphasis should be customizable within the general focus... Ie: If one selects Nothing Inside as a POE, and the individual options are there, they should also be able to play moderate individually on a shooter or front a particular player in the post even if it alters the overall POE a bit.

As implemented, POE is very limiting. It is not even possible to set strategy to front a player in the post at present. Certain POE's if modifiable would replicate particular team defenses pretty well. Ie: With Miami, the POE setting 'Create Chaos' is similar to their defensive approach except that Miami's defense does not commit to double teams on Pick and Rolls as much as the Create Chaos setting forces. In this case, if there was the ability to individually set players to hard hedge on pick and rolls, it would be more true to their actual defense.

If there are instances where a POE may be broken by a set of selected individual assignments, then they should not be selectable within the POE; just as one cannot currently select 'Nothing Inside' and 'Limit Perimeter Shots' simultaneously. POE should be able to be ignored completely at the users discretion in favor of individual defensive settings as well. Some POE's can even have presets of individual sliders.

[Sundown]

Defensive Settings Completely Removed from Next-Gen.

Last night, I was playing the Lakers. Wes Johnson started going off on 3's-- and I thought, oh, I'll just set his defender to tight and never leave hi-- FUUU I CAN'T!

I shouldn't have to restructure my entire defense to put more pressure on their 3rd option when he hits a few shots.

[The 24th Letter]

Re: Defensive Settings Completely Removed from Next-Gen.

Last night, I was playing the Lakers. Wes Johnson started going off on 3's-- and I thought, oh, I'll just set his defender to tight and never leave hi-- FUUU I CAN'T!

I shouldn't have to restructure my enter defense to put more pressure on their 3rd option when he hits a few shots.

My defensive POE is on OFF...and I play man to man so I am typically able to contain shooters without changing the entire defense....but I agree... Individual defensive settings are a must!

[Illustrator76]

Re: Defensive Settings Completely Removed from Next-Gen.

I have been away for a while. I am not even sure if I got the patch (haven't been prompted for a download at all), but do you guys know if the patch fixes the issue of the defender crashing to the hole on pick-and-roll plays constantly leaving his man open for 3 after 3?

If not, has anyone here been able to find a solution for this? That issue is still killing the game for me personally.

Thanks in advance for any help given.

[jaateloauto]

Re: Defensive Settings Completely Removed from Next-Gen.

2. Did you really enjoy players adding PLAY TIGHT to every offensive player and pick passing games all game long? I feel like POE need to be adjusted often and they change the way you're playing the game. I personally find it more of a chess match now than ever before in a much more balanced way. If you feel differently, feel free to always leave feedback.

Yes, if someone played tight on everyone I enjoyed the super easy offense that no help defense causes. If you don't know how to adjust to the defense the opponent is running then I'm sorry but that's on you and not the settings. The chess game that is played in the real NBA is about small adjustments, not changing overall defensive strategy at the push of a button. Good defensive teams have the same philosophy in their game no matter what the opponent specific adjustments will be.

Also I've never had to adjust my POE in this game. If there was a more efficient way to tell defenders to stay on their men than 'Limit perimeter shots' I would switch to that. As it stands there isn't one so I have to use that all game every game, even though I'd like there to be more options and be able to make small adjustments... something like defensive settings and coach profiles.

I wish there was a way to decide what to do on pick & rolls defense and have defenders reliably stay on deadly 3pt shooters.

[Kaanyr Vhok]

Re: Defensive Settings Completely Removed from Next-Gen.

Yes, if someone played tight on everyone I enjoyed the super easy offense that no help defense causes. If you don't know how to adjust to the defense the opponent is running then I'm sorry but that's on you and not the settings. The chess game that is played in the real NBA is about small adjustments, not changing overall defensive strategy at the push of a button. Good defensive teams have the same philosophy in their game no matter what the opponent specific adjustments will be.

Also I've never had to adjust my POE in this game. If there was a more efficient way to tell defenders to stay on their men than 'Limit perimeter shots' I would switch to that. As it stands there isn't one so I have to use that all game every game, even though I'd like there to be more options and be able to make small adjustments... something like defensive settings and coach profiles.

I wish there was a way to decide what to do on pick & rolls defense and have defenders reliably stay on deadly 3pt shooters.

Tight defense would still leave shooters open and help on penetration. Deny would never leave guys. They might lose them off offball picks or get stupid on switches but they didnt leave unless you called a double.

I'm not sure what LD2k means. I'm not sure if he is saying tight onball was overpowered or offball. I can only assume he meant onball because there is nothing overpowered about playing tight offball defense and I stopped playing tight onball defense in favor of auto in most cases.

[mlb08]

Re: Defensive Settings Completely Removed from Next-Gen.

Its too bad they removed many options and old menu it was better than now. Sometimes you just cant stop opponent they coming at you like crazy.

[hapa17]

Re: Defensive Settings Completely Removed from Next-Gen.

i've given it a more earnest attempt to make PoE work. i was playing celtics vs. pacers last night on all pro difficulty, and had decent results. i find it as sort of a blunt, knee-jerk system. if a george hill and paul george start hitting from outside, you go to a limit outside shooting defense. but once you do that and roy hibbert starts warming up from inside, you can flex to key on him and keep "limit outside" on, or flex to key on paul g. and go "nothing inside". at that point though you're giving up hill's outside shooting. the pacers are actually probably a bad team to use as an example because they're really not that strong from the perimeter. they're a more go-ahead-and-pack-the-paint type opponent, thus i only lost by 4.

i can kind of see the give-and-take of doing a PoE system and not giving a user infinite ability to cover up all contingencies (cover up one thing should uncover something else), but on the other hand, as people have argued, there are logical counters for the more in-depth system.

so i guess in a general sense, PoE is a good dumbed down defensive settings system for " video gamers" (as opposed to "sim heads"). if the old system of D settings was too overpowered, you'd hope that the way the game played, you could just beat the D by exploiting its play type. for example, if a D goes deny all-around and tries to play the passing lanes, then the game should allow for some sort of spread-and-iso plays where your star can attempt to just break his man down one-on-one — beat the man and cruise to the cup since no one else will help. or, isolate a 2-man game on one side of the floor — PnR(P) your best 2 guys and once again, exploit the fact that the D will NOT send help. if the classic D settings turn into a pass-picking game, then the offensive user is probably not reading the defense correctly by continuing to force passes. i never used to have to think that deeply about it though because i play almost exclusively offline and the computer didn't seem to play an all-out deny on me. on the flipside, as a user-controlled defense, i could play the passing lanes against the opponent AI, especially if they went into a very predictable play motion, but that was more of me manually jumping the lane than manipulating the settings and the computer playing very predictably.

i really do believe the answer here is to enable either system to be flipped on — PoE being more of the "soft" sim or arcade style, and the old settings being more "true" sim. and if you want to decrease the power of the "deny" setting, just go with a "do/don't help off of" setting. that's really all it should be about: choosing whom to help off of and going over/under/blitzing PnR screens. if the game is truly capable of playing sim, it should provide ways to play to counter any D, especially in a sim style game. if it felt too overpowered to just deny dead-eye shooters, then make the offense (user or AI) have to adjust by running their shooters off off-ball screens. every team in the NBA plays deny/do-not-help-off-of defense on ray allen, but ray is still able to get open because he runs through complex sets of screens. and every once in a while, he'll even drive it to the hoop to keep the D honest. ray's even good about coming off an off-ball down-screen and threading the needle to drop a touch-pass down to the rolling screener (at least he was when he was with the celtics).

these are all counters to defenders cheating good shooters. if it's too difficult to play these out in the game, then the offense needs to be improved.

i'm not condemning PoE though. sometimes you don't want to play chess, in which case, PoE allows you to think less, especially if you go all the way and let it auto-pick.

[jaateloauto]

Re: Defensive Settings Completely Removed from Next-Gen.

Tight defense would still leave shooters open and help on penetration. Deny would never leave guys. They might lose them off offball picks or get stupid on switches but they didnt leave unless you called a double.

I'm not sure what LD2k means. I'm not sure if he is saying tight onball was overpowered or offball. I can only assume he meant onball because there is nothing overpowered about playing tight offball defense and I stopped playing tight onball defense in favor of auto in most cases.

I would bet he's talking about off-ball, there are people who think it's overpowered (mostly people who don't know how to use them). In 2K13 I had an online "sim league" ban defensive settings because I won the league 3 times in a row and was one of only a handful of guys that used them. Lol.