MyLeague Regression - (Because the issue should not be forgotten)

[ronyell]

Re: MyLeague Regression - (Because the issue should not be forgotten)

BigT is SO adamant about disproving what people are saying in this thread & then saying that he agrees the sentiments here...

BigT - i have stated this a few times & as many responses that you have given in long form with graphs & links... you ask a redundant question of how 2k's ratings are inflated to which i at least have answered twice.

the issue is or at least is compounded by the fact that the cPU uses ratings as main priority factor when managing CPU rotations... THAT BEING SAID... the "inflated ratings" cause specialty players or role players that don't have let's say an 77 overall to be out of the league or at least out of a rotation. you give references of stars & high caliber players which may or may not digress (IMO they digress the most because the have a higher point to fall from). the issue is the lesser players that STILL get MPG.

your research posts show production decline in the age range of 30 & up but what it does NOT show that DOES happen in the game is:

DRASTICALLY decline players TWENTY SEVEN & UP to the point that they CAN'T have a production decline because they simply can't get signed by the CPU or break the CPU's rotation.

THAT is why people are referencing "inflated ratings". no one is here to dispute your every notion but i have clearly stated WHY & HOW regression is an issue.

if they declined but maintained rotational use and 2k didn't base rotations off of overall ratings then your points would be valid but since that is not the case, you have made great points & given great research & data on the matter BUT it is not relevant to how practically it plays out in 2ks MyLeague.

[BigT34]

Re: MyLeague Regression - (Because the issue should not be forgotten)

BigT is SO adamant about disproving what people are saying in this thread & then saying that he agrees the sentiments here...

BigT - i have stated this a few times & as many responses that you have given in long form with graphs & links... you ask a redundant question of how 2k's ratings are inflated to which i at least have answered twice.

the issue is or at least is compounded by the fact that the cPU uses ratings as main priority factor when managing CPU rotations... THAT BEING SAID... the "inflated ratings" cause specialty players or role players that don't have let's say an 77 overall to be out of the league or at least out of a rotation. you give references of stars & high caliber players which may or may not digress (IMO they digress the most because the have a higher point to fall from). the issue is the lesser players that STILL get MPG.

your research posts show production decline in the age range of 30 & up but what it does NOT show that DOES happen in the game is:

DRASTICALLY decline players TWENTY SEVEN & UP to the point that they CAN'T have a production decline because they simply can't get signed by the CPU or break the CPU's rotation.

THAT is why people are referencing "inflated ratings". no one is here to dispute your every notion but i have clearly stated WHY & HOW regression is an issue.

if they declined but maintained rotational use and 2k didn't base rotations off of overall ratings then your points would be valid but since that is not the case, you have made great points & given great research & data on the matter BUT it is not relevant to how practically it plays out in 2ks MyLeague.

I think you're being a little overly dramatic here. I'm really not sure why you think I'm trying to disprove everything people say. I've got at least 5 things I'd change to significantly improve progression and regression. We agree it's an area that needs significant improvement.

I essentially agree with your points--these are definite areas that are issues. I've actually noted them myself--that the CPU doesn't value veterans enough, and that the decline is indeed too rapid.

Could you point me to those links that address inflated ratings? I really am curious.

[ronyell]

Re: MyLeague Regression - (Because the issue should not be forgotten)

I think you're being a little overly dramatic here. I'm really not sure why you think I'm trying to disprove everything people say. I've got at least 5 things I'd change to significantly improve progression and regression. We agree it's an area that needs significant improvement.

I essentially agree with your points--these are definite areas that are issues. I've actually noted them myself--that the CPU doesn't value veterans enough, and that the decline is indeed too rapid.

Could you point me to those links that address inflated ratings? I really am curious.

i did not say that there were links that address inflated ratings. i addressed the reasons why people have POSTED that the ratings are inflated. the very posts that you have had a rebuttal to throughout this thread. if you search each of your own posts you will will see those posts just a few posts ahead of your own referencing 2k's inflated ratings that you are curious about.

[BigT34]

Re: MyLeague Regression - (Because the issue should not be forgotten)

I have to admit that I don't really understand your post. I'm curious as to what evidence supports the notion that ratings are inflated. As in--if 3 point ratings are inflated, presumably that would result in a guy who is a 35% three point shooter making, say 42% of threes on a sufficiently large sample size of realistic attempts. Has that kind of thing been tested?

I'm not sure what you mean when you say "the reasons people have POSTED the ratings are inflated."

[vtcrb]

Re: MyLeague Regression - (Because the issue should not be forgotten)

I have to admit that I don't really understand your post. I'm curious as to what evidence supports the notion that ratings are inflated. As in--if 3 point ratings are inflated, presumably that would result in a guy who is a 35% three point shooter making, say 42% of threes on a sufficiently large sample size of realistic attempts. Has that kind of thing been tested?

I'm not sure what you mean when you say "the reasons people have POSTED the ratings are inflated."

Have you made a Roster before? If you havent then you wouldnt understand what Ronyell is saying. As has been seen in this Thread, Roster Editors have a COMPLETE different view of the Game than guys who just pick up the game and Play.

[BigT34]

Re: MyLeague Regression - (Because the issue should not be forgotten)

Have you made a Roster before? If you havent then you wouldnt understand what Ronyell is saying. As has been seen in this Thread, Roster Editors have a COMPLETE different view of the Game than guys who just pick up the game and Play.

That's exactly why I'm asking you guys to share your knowledge and experience, because I haven't put the time in that you guys have. I'm literally asking you to share what you've learned.

For some reason, you seem to prefer instead to just be an overly dramatic, pompous know-it-all. How about, instead of this condescending, "you're not one of us, you just wouldn't understand" nonsense, you step off your high horse and actually have a conversation with someone who wants to talk to you about the topic you're so passionate about?

[madmax52277]

Re: MyLeague Regression - (Because the issue should not be forgotten)

That's exactly why I'm asking you guys to share your knowledge and experience, because I haven't put the time in that you guys have. I'm literally asking you to share what you've learned.

For some reason, you seem to prefer instead to just be an overly dramatic, pompous know-it-all. How about, instead of this condescending, "you're not one of us, you just wouldn't understand" nonsense, you step off your high horse and actually have a conversation with someone who wants to talk to you about the topic you're so passionate about?

It's very simple, 2k might have melo speed rating at 90...roster makers will think that's to highly rating for melo and give him a 75 speed rating, and it goes on and on for difference in editing.

[LorenzoDC]

Re: MyLeague Regression - (Because the issue should not be forgotten)

It's very simple, 2k might have melo speed rating at 90...roster makers will think that's to highly rating for melo and give him a 75 speed rating, and it goes on and on for difference in editing.

That does make it more clear.

No disrespect to ronyell on the font and alignment choices, but those comments are, to me, much harder to read. Just fwiw. But I have no side in this argument, been following the thread. Just wish the argument was over.

[vtcrb]

Re: MyLeague Regression - (Because the issue should not be forgotten)

That's exactly why I'm asking you guys to share your knowledge and experience, because I haven't put the time in that you guys have. I'm literally asking you to share what you've learned.

For some reason, you seem to prefer instead to just be an overly dramatic, pompous know-it-all. How about, instead of this condescending, "you're not one of us, you just wouldn't understand" nonsense, you step off your high horse and actually have a conversation with someone who wants to talk to you about the topic you're so passionate about?

How about YOU put in the work and then come talk to us. We have put in COUNTLESS Hours at this. I HAVENT been disrespectful at all to you but the Name Calling set that into another level.

We CONSTANTLY have guys on Here Trying to tell the Guys WHO have worked on the Game(s) for YEARs how things should be done. We give you an answer you want to Debate what we say. Not sure how much More CLEAR Ronyell can be with you, he has explained his side and You just want to Keep saying "I DONT SEE IT being a Game Breaking issues", which is Fine, but to say that comments are "POMPUS" and "We KNOW it ALL" is BS. We have been Nothing but Helpful to the Forums for YEARS, but it is comments like Yours that will soon have OS without alot of Long time guys, then you can sit here and Debate with Yourself.

[BigT34]

Re: MyLeague Regression - (Because the issue should not be forgotten)

How about YOU put in the work and then come talk to us. We have put in COUNTLESS Hours at this. I HAVENT been disrespectful at all to you but the Name Calling set that into another level.

We CONSTANTLY have guys on Here Trying to tell the Guys WHO have worked on the Game(s) for YEARs how things should be done. We give you an answer you want to Debate what we say. Not sure how much More CLEAR Ronyell can be with you, he has explained his side and You just want to Keep saying "I DONT SEE IT being a Game Breaking issues", which is Fine, but to say that comments are "POMPUS" and "We KNOW it ALL" is BS. We have been Nothing but Helpful to the Forums for YEARS, but it is comments like Yours that will soon have OS without alot of Long time guys, then you can sit here and Debate with Yourself.

Why are you so upset? There's really no need for these histrionics.

I'm just asking you guys to share your experiences so we can have a discussion. I'm asking a simple question: in what ways are 2K roster ratings inflated, and how has that conclusion been reached?

It has been stated several times that we shouldn't be using 2K default rosters as a baseline for evaluating regression because those ratings are inflated. I think that's an interesting point, so I'm trying to understand more about that.

If you can't see the value that posting tons of excellent research on real NBA aging curves brings to this discussion, that's your issue. My goal is to help further the discussion towards what a realistic basketball game would look like.

Interestingly, you and ronyell have managed to derail this discussion from one of meaningful content to a personal one that centers around your egos and how they've been offended. Maybe it's time we got it back on track.

[ronyell]

Re: MyLeague Regression - (Because the issue should not be forgotten)

Good to know.

Perhaps this will be an opportunity for somebody to explain how 2k uses "inflated" ratings, something I don't really understand.

I know some people hate generated draft classes, but this is an important part of the game--ideally we wouldn't need custom classes.

However, here's a couple of examples from my current MyLeague of older veterans who are still viable.

PG Kenny Cross
-34 years old, 70 OVR
-acquired by me to balance salaries in a trade, but has become my backup PG
-Formerly 10th overall pick, 12 year veteran, career best seasons were 11.4ppg 5.6 apg, never made a single all-star appearance, never played more than 28mpg in a single season. -His potential is 77, which suggests that he never peaked above 77 OVR
-Notable ratings include
--Midrange: 83 standing, 75 moving
--3 point: 85 standing, 74 moving
--92 ball control, 79 passing accuracy, 93 passing vision, 94 passing IQ
--51 lateral quickness, 64 speed, 64 quickness (he is 34)
--Gold badges: Bank is Open, Behind the Back Pro, Hesitation Stunner, Killer Crossover, Pet Move Size Up, and a silver Dimer badge

So, this is a guy with great ball-handling skills, a capable passer, and a guy who can hit open threes and provide spacing. Not bad for a 34 year old who was never an all-star and has been in the league 12 years.

Gary Terrell
-35 years old, 85 OVR
-Former all-star, formerly maxed at 97 OVR, now the 7th highest OVR SG in the league
-Speed and quickness have fallen from the mid 90s to the mid-70s
-Still 85+ in midrange and 3-point rating
-Still 85+ in ball-handling and passing accuracy
-92 OBDIQ, 89 Pass Perception, 96 Pick and Roll D IQ
-Driving Dunk has declined from 94 (he was a monster) to 76, driving layup is still 85
-Has had some gold badges decay to silver or bronze, but has 28 total badges including acrobat, break starter, fade ace, corner specialist, stepback freeze, dimer, pick and roll maestro, charge card, pick dodger, perimeter lockdown, transition finisher, one man fastbreak, closer, mind games, prime time, and spark plug

In short, this guy is 35, and yes a former perennial all-star, but he can do major work even at his age.

Grant Washburn
-35 years old, 76 OVR SG
-Former perennial all-star, peaked at 90 OVR
-Still 80s in standing mid-range and 87 in standing 3
-Speed and quickness in the 60s
-Badges include tear dropper, pick pocket, corner specialist, limitless range, acrobat, killer crossover, mentor

Interestingly, Washburn and Terrell both have the all-time great badge. Perhaps that affects aging?

Others of note: Marcus Smart is 71 OVR at 34, Julius Randle is 72 OVR. Still very viable players.

What's relevant is that the numbers really dry up past age 35, and no longer match the NBA at all. Currently a 68 OVR Brandon Knight, at age 37, is the only player >35 in the league. That's a problem, but also not the worst thing in the world--certainly not compared to inability to save multiple freaking files.

Another issue is that some of these viable older players are sitting in free agency, either because CPU AIs don't prioritize them or because their salary demands are perhaps too high.

Did you even look at the data that I posted? Based on one study, NBA players have, on average, a 17% decline in production from age 30 to 31. That is not "slight." That is tremendous.

But a 17% decline in Gasol's production still makes him a damn good player, and one of the best in the world. Just like a 3-4 point drop in his OVR from 30 to 31 wouldn't spell the end of his career.

You're acting like you know what will happen with him. But NOBODY knows what will happen with Gasol next year. He could certainly buck the trend and have an even better season. He could have a much worse season. He could have roughly the same season.

But to act like we KNOW that he won't have a meaningful decline in productivity is silly. It is something that happens very, very often.

If people are arguing that the regression system is broken because they don't think a guy like Gasol will get worse next year, I'd argue it's their thinking that's flawed, not the game. I'm all for improving the regression system--I think it needs improvement. But let's anchor that discussion in reality, not perception. We have data to tell us what really happens, and we should use it.

And there are indeed only 13 players who are 33 years old currently. My source is here: http://www.basketball-reference.com/..._advanced.html

Ages on that chart are age as of Feb 1 of the season. You can sort by the age column, and count EXACTLY 13 players at that age. You are correct that 18% of the league is 30 years or older, and you are also correct that number is a bit too low in 2k MyLeague.

How about YOU put in the work and then come talk to us. We have put in COUNTLESS Hours at this. I HAVENT been disrespectful at all to you but the Name Calling set that into another level.

We CONSTANTLY have guys on Here Trying to tell the Guys WHO have worked on the Game(s) for YEARs how things should be done. We give you an answer you want to Debate what we say. Not sure how much More CLEAR Ronyell can be with you, he has explained his side and You just want to Keep saying "I DONT SEE IT being a Game Breaking issues", which is Fine, but to say that comments are "POMPUS" and "We KNOW it ALL" is BS. We have been Nothing but Helpful to the Forums for YEARS, but it is comments like Yours that will soon have OS without alot of Long time guys, then you can sit here and Debate with Yourself.

precisely. i VERY rarely allow myself to go back and forth but your (BigT34) "whoa is me - i am oh so knowledgeable but yet so dumbfounded at the same time" demeanor & comments have been a complete detriment to the cause of this thread.

i don't pose to be the all knowing, nor have come into this thread with nonsensical algorithms & graph postings BUT i DO know what the hell i'm talking about & won't steer away from that nor will the others that are very knowledgeable of what they are talking about.

from your post history it is clear that you LOVE to debate the devil's advocate side of threads & then act as if you are just trying to get clarity (which ultimately derails the threads) OR you are a dev running damage control.

either way and as VT has stated... it has BEEN CLEARLY stated as to what the issue is & why & has been repeated & then you just continue to post more... "uhhh how? & please explains...". And no one has resulted to the slick off hand smart *** slights that you've thrown out there.

If you are in SUCH a quest for knowledge as you you would like to make seem; you should hit one of us to whom you keep going back & forth with via PM to continue the conversation instead of derailing threads (more than just this one). If not & you already know everything & would like to show so through algorithms & graphs; please do so in a new thread.

PS. posted in formal font & alignment for all to see clearly.

[vtcrb]

Re: MyLeague Regression - (Because the issue should not be forgotten)

I'm just asking you guys to share your experiences so we can have a discussion. I'm asking a simple question: in what ways are 2K roster ratings inflated, and how has that conclusion been reached?

It has been stated several times that we shouldn't be using 2K default rosters as a baseline for evaluating regression because those ratings are inflated. I think that's an interesting point, so I'm trying to understand more about that.

It's starting to look more and more like the answer to that question is, "they're inflated because we say so," which is fine--you're entitled to have your opinion. But you could just say that, rather than delving into such histrionics.

I RESPECT BEDs too much to go on here and Debate ANY of his Ratings. THAT is why you havent seen me Mention Anything Specific. Everyone sees the Game Different and Wants the Game to Play a Different Way. Which is what makes the Roster Making Community Great.

When Editing you will see Alot of Different Attributes can GREATLY Boost Overall Rating. ALL Athleticism Ratings can give a HUGE Boost to the Overall Rating. Shooting Attributes is another. There are so many Different Attributes that when Adjusted 1 or 2 points can Raise OR Lower and Overall Rating.

The purpose of the WHOLE thread was to show that Regression NEEDs to be addressed. IF Overall Rating is HIGHER to begin with you may not see as Steep of Decline, BUT it is there.

[ronyell]

Re: MyLeague Regression - (Because the issue should not be forgotten)

not that there haven't been other threads & not that there isn't a regression testing thread to assist us in finding a workaround for this issue; but i just feel that this issue should remain in a forefront capacity considering we have not yet gotten a response and we are nearing the halfway point in the gaming cycle.

i realize that many consider it to be a non-issue for 90% of the players in the HIGHLY touted MyLeague to DRASTICALLY regress once they reach 27-28 but for the MANY of us that purchase this game solely because of these such modes & even moreso because of how this mode was stream-promoted here on OS; this is a MUST fix or at BARE minimum MUST-ADDRESS for us. We should at least be informed as to if a fix is coming or if we HAVE to create our own tedious workarounds to enjoy the mode after one season.

I am sure many are, like myself; SLOWLY going through their first season of their MyLeague until we get ANY kind of word on this. In hopes that we can go through our MyLeagues as usual & as we expected to.

This post is not meant to be a rant nor is it an attack BUT serve as a reminder that failing to acknowledge & address on the very site that was used to promote the mode is extremely concerning. And hopefully now after the holidays we can get even the slightest inclination as to IF this will even be fixed. There was a LOT of fluid communication on this mode prior to & shortly after release... it'd be nice to get the same on an issue that so largely impacts the mode itself.

P.S. - anyone posting please refrain from trolling, attacking & being belligerent while expressing your discontent.

here's to getting the thread back on track via the ORIGINAL POST. read fluidly before posting.

[BigT34]

Re: MyLeague Regression - (Because the issue should not be forgotten)

I RESPECT BEDs too much to go on here and Debate ANY of his Ratings. THAT is why you havent seen me Mention Anything Specific. Everyone sees the Game Different and Wants the Game to Play a Different Way. Which is what makes the Roster Making Community Great.

When Editing you will see Alot of Different Attributes can GREATLY Boost Overall Rating. ALL Athleticism Ratings can give a HUGE Boost to the Overall Rating. Shooting Attributes is another. There are so many Different Attributes that when Adjusted 1 or 2 points can Raise OR Lower and Overall Rating.

The purpose of the WHOLE thread was to show that Regression NEEDs to be addressed. IF Overall Rating is HIGHER to begin with you may not see as Steep of Decline, BUT it is there.

Asking people to explain their reasoning does not equal being disrespectful. I'm not sure why you equate debate to disrespect?

It sounds like what you're describing is actually the way that OVR rating is calculated, which is somewhat different from saying ratings are inflated. It's actually a critique of the OVR formula, as well as the way that it's valued by CPU GM AIs. And guess what? I AGREE with you--CPU AI GMs don't value players as well as they could.

[BigT34]

Re: MyLeague Regression - (Because the issue should not be forgotten)

precisely. i VERY rarely allow myself to go back and forth but your (BigT34) "whoa is me - i am oh so knowledgeable but yet so dumbfounded at the same time" demeanor & comments have been a complete detriment to the cause of this thread.

i don't pose to be the all knowing, nor have come into this thread with nonsensical algorithms & graph postings BUT i DO know what the hell i'm talking about & won't steer away from that nor will the others that are very knowledgeable of what they are talking about.

from your post history it is clear that you LOVE to debate the devil's advocate side of threads & then act as if you are just trying to get clarity (which ultimately derails the threads) OR you are a dev running damage control.

either way and as VT has stated... it has BEEN CLEARLY stated as to what the issue is & why & has been repeated & then you just continue to post more... "uhhh how? & please explains...". And no one has resulted to the slick off hand smart *** slights that you've thrown out there.

If you are in SUCH a quest for knowledge as you you would like to make seem; you should hit one of us to whom you keep going back & forth with via PM to continue the conversation instead of derailing threads (more than just this one). If not & you already know everything & would like to show so through algorithms & graphs; please do so in a new thread.

PS. posted in formal font & alignment for all to see clearly.

1) You think those graphs are nonsensical? They're graphical depictions of real life NBA aging curves, which is a pretty central concept to this thread about regression. Are you telling me you don't think it's relevant to look at real life?

2) I haven't posted a single algorithm. I don't think "algorithm" is the word you meant to use.

Why are you SO angry at me?