Post Patch On-Ball Defense

[ESRyder312]

Re: Post Patch On-Ball Defense

So I talk to 2 different devs about the post game. Because I was just like you guys And I thought the post up spin move was over powering. I even thought it wasn't a post up move. And it was just the player/user just entering and exiting the post up button. But it's not. They told me how to stop. But you need to see it coming. Because if your late. It's going to look really bad. Playing defense in the post has a lot to do with the left stick. You can play the post in so many different way. Did you know that in the post that you can cover the player baseline shoulder? But in that same defense you give up the inside spin. They really did huge development in the post game this year.Playing defense and offense in the has to do with the left stick.





Haha Your welcome . What have we disagreed on? lol Just asking. Even the title of that thread took me a while. Because I didn't want people to run in there and say it's "broken". So I was kind of trying to keep the negative post out. And ask what people were doing. But in the same instances make people aware lol. I think video is key in this day and age. Especially because it's so easy to record game play. Your dummy if you don't.

Honestly, I didn't have a problem with on-ball post defense before the patch. I always played the baseline on a post up, and gave up middle. If the guy went middle, I'd count on my help defense or try to recover. But most of the time, online players spun baseline because they don't know how to play the post, so I was fine.

The problem I have with post defense now, post patch, is the forcefield issue. Before the patch, I could sit on a guy's baseline shoulder, and there'd be contact when he spun into my player. But after the patch, sitting on the baseline shoulder does nothing, and the defensive player just slides out of the way. Thus, this move could be exploited, whereas this should be a point of contact.

So, again, we have the forcefield/lack of contact issue.

[ESRyder312]

Re: Post Patch On-Ball Defense

I have some more video coming this afternoon too....because I had a player, who clearly didn't know what he was doing, trying to drive in with Dwight and losing the ball repeatedly to kind of piggy back off of iam31's video....

There's definitely some good data to take away this year because we've seen both sides of the spectrum....both have their own flaws and advantages.

Whaaattt, are you giving up on having them readdressing this issue? We gotta fight!

[Sundown]

Re: Post Patch On-Ball Defense

That's exactly what I'm talking about.



The problem is everyone here was complaining about excessive contact. While I won't comment on that, I will say that, if you watch an NBA game, there is not as much collisions because players are not mindlessly running through players.



However, in the video game world, where most players do not play as real basketball is played, players want to run through traffic and expect there to be no contact to "mimic" the lack of contact in real life.



There is a confusion about causation.



These players fail to realize that there is a lack of contact in real life because players are not running directly into other players. But, if a player runs directly into another player in a video game, there should be contact, as would happen in real life.



I am not suggesting someone like Roy Hibbert should have the ability to stop and bump someone like John Wall. I am saying there must be a balance.



I think this patch went too far the opposite way, but I also think there is a middle ground.

No, there was excessive contact at glancing angles before patch, period. Defenders could easily cut you off and any mild contact often tends to turn into a suction contact animation. Most of that would be fouls in real life. This has nothing to do with "not playing realistic", and the perimeter game was so excessively contact based that it masked the team defense issues for weeks.

The issue here is that 2K may have overcompensated or not properly handled angles directly into the defender to produce contact animations. But the game should NOT be as contact heavy at the perimeter as it was with weak defenders. That's not realistic perimeter defense, at all.

So please don't confuse my complaints about situations where there should be contact animations for wanting excessive and unrealistic contact back like it was pre-patch.

[ESRyder312]

Re: Post Patch On-Ball Defense

No, there was excessive contact at glancing angles before patch, period. Defenders could easily cut you off and any mild contact often tends to turn into a suction contact animation. Most of that would be fouls in real life. This has nothing to do with "not playing realistic", and the perimeter game was so excessively contact based that it masked the team defense issues for weeks.

The issue here is that 2K may have overcompensated or not properly handled angles directly into the defender to produce contact animations. But the game should NOT be as contact heavy at the perimeter as it was with weak defenders. That's not realistic perimeter defense, at all.

So please don't confuse my complaints about situations where there should be contact animations for wanting excessive and unrealistic contact back like it was pre-patch.

My second paragraph reads, "The problem is everyone here was complaining about excessive contact. While I won't comment on that, I will say that, if you watch an NBA game, there is not as much collisions because players are not mindlessly running through players."

As unrealistic as players claim the game was with the alleged excessive contact, the offensive game was and is just as unrealistic with online players holding down turbo all game and zig-zagging back and forth. The "unrealistic" contact was in response to the prevalence of unrealistic offense being played.

Now, the hordes of players who enjoy turboing to the basket from the three-point line with Dwight Howard can do so with little recourse because of the NOW unrealistic forcefield.

Again, regardless of whether people were getting "sucked" into contact, there must be contact when a player runs directly into another player. Period. To reiterate, I'm not commenting on how the game was pre-patch.

For the players who actually play the game the right way, and don't cheese, this game, post patch, has gone too far the wrong way. It's made it easier for cheesers to get around the defenders, although the game compensates with more loose balls.

One of the main reasons why I liked pre-patch better than post patch is because it punished players who refused to learn the game. My point of view on that, then, is the following: If players played unrealistically, they should be stopped unrealistically.

[DatGD12guage]

Re: Post Patch On-Ball Defense

No, there was excessive contact at glancing angles before patch, period. Defenders could easily cut you off and any mild contact often tends to turn into a suction contact animation. Most of that would be fouls in real life. This has nothing to do with "not playing realistic", and the perimeter game was so excessively contact based that it masked the team defense issues for weeks.

The issue here is that 2K may have overcompensated or not properly handled angles directly into the defender to produce contact animations. But the game should NOT be as contact heavy at the perimeter as it was with weak defenders. That's not realistic perimeter defense, at all.

So please don't confuse my complaints about situations where there should be contact animations for wanting excessive and unrealistic contact back like it was pre-patch.

Man what are you talking about may have overcompensated?! THIS IS WHAT YOU ASKED FOR(you and your cosigning buddies). Why in the hell do you think 2k added those bumps in the first place? You think they WERE just there for no reason huh? Reality check, in the nba 9 times out of 10 when you have the ball you are going to get touched or CONTACT HEAVY.

Plus when you were guarded by weak defenders you get that blow by contact animation where the defender kind of rides you but you get past him so it was NOT over powered but you are not going to get past a weak defender EVERYTIME anyway thats real shh.


You suppose to be a veteran in here and you crying bc you cant get past the d bc they bumped you smh. Look up the definition of bump, its basically jostling and collisions and it happens FREQUENTLY in basketball between ball handler and the defender.

They should have put even more "bumping" in the game then maybe you will learn how to create space and take a jumpshot when you cant turbo in the paint all the time bc you think you should just bc you have a lebron.

Lets look at Lebron he does not even always drive when he has a smaller defender who can defend like a rondo, you know why? bc he's smart. You will still see him create space and shoot over them bc they are shorter, back them down to get closer in the paint or just call for a pick.


I keep saying YOU lack the offensive skills and your complaining is just ruining the game bc you are not paying attention to what you are doing. Just admit that this was a bad idea so we can get 2k to get the defense back up to par with the offense so we dont move backwards, got dam bruh!

[DatGD12guage]

Re: Post Patch On-Ball Defense

No, there was excessive contact at glancing angles before patch, period. Defenders could easily cut you off and any mild contact often tends to turn into a suction contact animation. Most of that would be fouls in real life. This has nothing to do with "not playing realistic", and the perimeter game was so excessively contact based that it masked the team defense issues for weeks.

The issue here is that 2K may have overcompensated or not properly handled angles directly into the defender to produce contact animations. But the game should NOT be as contact heavy at the perimeter as it was with weak defenders. That's not realistic perimeter defense, at all.

So please don't confuse my complaints about situations where there should be contact animations for wanting excessive and unrealistic contact back like it was pre-patch.

All im saying is bruh your argument should not be how many times you get bumped or contact on the perimeter or what you THINK should be a foul bc everybody always THiNK they get fouled being cute n stuff.

I think your argument should be more of the VARIETY of contact animations bc basketball is a 100% contact sport. You sound crazy complaining about collisions. Those are the physics at work my dude, what are yall doing?

[jeebs9]

Re: Post Patch On-Ball Defense

Hey guys.... How do you think blocking fouls are programmed?

[ESRyder312]

Re: Post Patch On-Ball Defense

Hey guys.... How do you think blocking fouls are programmed?

I don't have a problem with them. I think there WAS a good balance between how many blocking fouls were called and how much contact there WAS. In past iterations if 2K, I thought there was a lack of fouls, so, I'm glad this is now a thing.

And DatGD12guage... So much win in those two posts. So much win.

[BegBy]

Re: Post Patch On-Ball Defense

Man what are you talking about may have overcompensated?! THIS IS WHAT YOU ASKED FOR(you and your cosigning buddies). Why in the hell do you think 2k added those bumps in the first place? You think they WERE just there for no reason huh? Reality check, in the nba 9 times out of 10 when you have the ball you are going to get touched or CONTACT HEAVY.

Plus when you were guarded by weak defenders you get that blow by contact animation where the defender kind of rides you but you get past him so it was NOT over powered but you are not going to get past a weak defender EVERYTIME anyway thats real shh.


You suppose to be a veteran in here and you crying bc you cant get past the d bc they bumped you smh. Look up the definition of bump, its basically jostling and collisions and it happens FREQUENTLY in basketball between ball handler and the defender.

They should have put even more "bumping" in the game then maybe you will learn how to create space and take a jumpshot when you cant turbo in the paint all the time bc you think you should just bc you have a lebron.

Lets look at Lebron he does not even always drive when he has a smaller defender who can defend like a rondo, you know why? bc he's smart. You will still see him create space and shoot over them bc they are shorter, back them down to get closer in the paint or just call for a pick.


I keep saying YOU lack the offensive skills and your complaining is just ruining the game bc you are not paying attention to what you are doing. Just admit that this was a bad idea so we can get 2k to get the defense back up to par with the offense so we dont move backwards, got dam bruh!

For you, sir and also for every other person who comes on these forums and claims they want their physicality on the perimeter back. Watch it. Listen to the narrator. Read the rules. Watch it again. Reflect on your position in these arguments. Stop calling people out and saying that what YOU want is anything less than a bail-out because what YOU want is not NBA basketball. What YOU want is the game to do YOUR work for YOU with horrible animations and a level of physicality that rivals other sports. What YOU want is defenders to react at inhuman speeds or if YOU are controlling them they magically negate physics and ignore NBA rules so YOU can get the stop.

http://videorulebook.nba.com/archive/blocking-defender-hedges-out-on-pickn-roll-does-not-establish-legal-position/

From that link you'll be able to read and see video proof (since unless you provide video proof for anything on these forums you'll be called out) of just about every single rule and infraction that can occur in the NBA.

The bottom line, as shown in the link above, is really quite simple. The physicality in the game is overdone and would more often than not be called a foul in the NBA. I'm sorry if that upsets people but those are quite literally the rules as determined by the NBA itself.

What compounds the issue in the 2k series is the lack of legit defense on a fundamental level and a mixture of arbitrary animations, exaggerated animations, near psychic reaction times of cpu defenders (note that cpu controlled ai is not as consistent or good as the cpu defenders), ignorance of real world physics and people actually believing that when they press buttons they lack the ability to be incorrect.

Defense is about teamwork. It's not about impossibly sticking to your guy like glue. It's about letting a guy have room to move all day in that direction because you know you have help and his options are limited. Not banging into him to prevent him from even using a screen 25 feet from the basket. It's about collectively making sound decisions and giving up certain shots. It's not about reacting to a person's movement at the exact instant it happens. It's about making some clutch stops and consistent sound play. It's not about shutting a guy down every trip down the court by magically getting in front of him without foul calls.

The NBA's best defenders still get beat all the time. The NBA's best defensive teams will still let in lots of points, because pace is also a huge factor in basketball. That is overlooked so much. I am surprised it's rarely mentioned.

I beg everyone to watch the last game between the Golden State Warriors and the LA Clippers. Golden State is regarded as a very sound defensive team with arguably a few of the leagues best on ball and team defenders. Green, Iggy, Thompson and Bogut are no slouches. Curry is also, in my opinion, a highly underrated on ball defender. The Clippers are also pretty decent defensively, although not quite at the Golden State level. Regardless of their defensive abilities both teams put up big points. The reason why is simple. NBA rules dictate that the offensive player(s) pretty much have the right of way. Pace is massive and a few made quick shots (because the offensive player wasn't being bounced around like a pinball) will make scores inflate dramatically.

Saying they should add more bumping and contact is (according to the NBA rules as shown above) is dead wrong. Inarguably, positively and absolutely wrong.

[Sundown]

Re: Post Patch On-Ball Defense

Man what are you talking about may have overcompensated?! THIS IS WHAT YOU ASKED FOR(you and your cosigning buddies). Why in the hell do you think 2k added those bumps in the first place? You think they WERE just there for no reason huh? Reality check, in the nba 9 times out of 10 when you have the ball you are going to get touched or CONTACT HEAVY.

No one asked for zero contact when players are running directly into another. What was asked for was less contact at glancing angles from weak defenders. Thanks for speaking up for me however.

You suppose to be a veteran in here and you crying bc you cant get past the d bc they bumped you smh. Look up the definition of bump, its basically jostling and collisions and it happens FREQUENTLY in basketball between ball handler and the defender.

The hell? I don't think I've ever met, spoken with, or played against you-- really strange for you to be speaking anything about me.

I can fare fine with the pre-patch defense, but I deem it less than realistic because I watch games on a daily basis and defense is not played by sucking and bumping by weak defenders on mild contact. It is played by successful rotations and schemes and heavy contact is only exhibited and gotten away with by certain elite defenders and teams. The Warriors who lead the league in defense last season wasn't even one of them.

It was so ovepowered that people didn't notice how bad the pick and roll defense, rotations, and general team defense was for weeks, because it would have been exposed with realistic modelling of perimeter penetration.

I keep saying YOU lack the offensive skills and your complaining is just ruining the game bc you are not paying attention to what you are doing. Just admit that this was a bad idea so we can get 2k to get the defense back up to par with the offense so we dont move backwards, got dam bruh!

Seriously, the hell? Maybe think about making cogent basketball arguments without taking shots at people you neither know or know anything about?

I DIDN'T make the assumption that you can't play defense and are only complaining because you need the crutch of unrealistic bumping, so I'd appreciate if the favor was returned.

[Sundown]

Re: Post Patch On-Ball Defense

All im saying is bruh your argument should not be how many times you get bumped or contact on the perimeter or what you THINK should be a foul bc everybody always THiNK they get fouled being cute n stuff.

I think your argument should be more of the VARIETY of contact animations bc basketball is a 100% contact sport. You sound crazy complaining about collisions. Those are the physics at work my dude, what are yall doing?

I'm definitely for a greater variety of contact animations include more mild/glancing contact animations and hip-riding animations that don't simply suck your player in and stop movement.


As far as physics go, 2K seems to use a pretty simplified physics engine that selectively plays animations based on context and doesn't work well if those animations aren't there or aren't properly triggered.


As for fouls, many of those contact animations would be fouls if you watch any decent amount of modern basketball. Some players can get away with that physicality but it's certainly not ever player from 1-15. I mean when's the last time you saw a blocking foul in 2K16?

Defense is about teamwork. It's not about impossibly sticking to your guy like glue. It's about letting a guy have room to move all day in that direction because you know you have help and his options are limited. Not banging into him to prevent him from even using a screen 25 feet from the basket. It's about collectively making sound decisions and giving up certain shots. It's not about reacting to a person's movement at the exact instant it happens. It's about making some clutch stops and consistent sound play. It's not about shutting a guy down every trip down the court by magically getting in front of him without foul calls.

Saying they should add more bumping and contact is (according to the NBA rules as shown above) is dead wrong. Inarguably, positively and absolutely wrong.

This. Modern NBA defenses rely on teamwork and schemes beyond just iso-handchecking.


It's also why I'm not sold on the approach 2K takes of nerfing CPU teammate defenders if you're not controlling them. They're in position to contest. They have their hands up. Why should they be treated as somewhat invisible just because I'm not switched on them, when they are in the proper defensive position for defending the man I funnelled to them?

[Caelumfang]

Re: Post Patch On-Ball Defense

I just find this to be very funny. It's like the '2k vets' around here still haven't realize that, when you ask for a nerf or buff, 90% of the time the patch is going to go overboard. All these years, and y'all still haven't learned?

[DatGD12guage]

Re: Post Patch On-Ball Defense

For you, sir and also for every other person who comes on these forums and claims they want their physicality on the perimeter back. Watch it. Listen to the narrator. Read the rules. Watch it again. Reflect on your position in these arguments. Stop calling people out and saying that what YOU want is anything less than a bail-out because what YOU want is not NBA basketball. What YOU want is the game to do YOUR work for YOU with horrible animations and a level of physicality that rivals other sports. What YOU want is defenders to react at inhuman speeds or if YOU are controlling them they magically negate physics and ignore NBA rules so YOU can get the stop.

http://videorulebook.nba.com/archive/blocking-defender-hedges-out-on-pickn-roll-does-not-establish-legal-position/

From that link you'll be able to read and see video proof (since unless you provide video proof for anything on these forums you'll be called out) of just about every single rule and infraction that can occur in the NBA.

The bottom line, as shown in the link above, is really quite simple. The physicality in the game is overdone and would more often than not be called a foul in the NBA. I'm sorry if that upsets people but those are quite literally the rules as determined by the NBA itself.

What compounds the issue in the 2k series is the lack of legit defense on a fundamental level and a mixture of arbitrary animations, exaggerated animations, near psychic reaction times of cpu defenders (note that cpu controlled ai is not as consistent or good as the cpu defenders), ignorance of real world physics and people actually believing that when they press buttons they lack the ability to be incorrect.

Defense is about teamwork. It's not about impossibly sticking to your guy like glue. It's about letting a guy have room to move all day in that direction because you know you have help and his options are limited. Not banging into him to prevent him from even using a screen 25 feet from the basket. It's about collectively making sound decisions and giving up certain shots. It's not about reacting to a person's movement at the exact instant it happens. It's about making some clutch stops and consistent sound play. It's not about shutting a guy down every trip down the court by magically getting in front of him without foul calls.

The NBA's best defenders still get beat all the time. The NBA's best defensive teams will still let in lots of points, because pace is also a huge factor in basketball. That is overlooked so much. I am surprised it's rarely mentioned.

I beg everyone to watch the last game between the Golden State Warriors and the LA Clippers. Golden State is regarded as a very sound defensive team with arguably a few of the leagues best on ball and team defenders. Green, Iggy, Thompson and Bogut are no slouches. Curry is also, in my opinion, a highly underrated on ball defender. The Clippers are also pretty decent defensively, although not quite at the Golden State level. Regardless of their defensive abilities both teams put up big points. The reason why is simple. NBA rules dictate that the offensive player(s) pretty much have the right of way. Pace is massive and a few made quick shots (because the offensive player wasn't being bounced around like a pinball) will make scores inflate dramatically.

Saying they should add more bumping and contact is (according to the NBA rules as shown above) is dead wrong. Inarguably, positively and absolutely wrong.

First of all that animation is in the game!!!(Well WAS......) MY POINT EXACTLY, just bc you think its a foul does not mean TAKE the animation OUT of the freaking game dude. Its a part of the game, all they have to do is up the fouls on that in which I could agree needs to be done but that call is NOT i repeat NOT a foul everytime bruh ppl flop and everything else to get that call but it is not always called FACTS. I swear you guys are SLEEP!

2k was ATTEMPTING to add realistic physics in the game and you (bleeps) dont even realize that your own argument is NOT with the animations its a case of a foul should be called or maybe they should have triggered a different animation in so and so situation bc your offense is trash, YET, YET your looking at and post a video with a collision between the ball handler and a defender SEEING the animation is almost the same EXACT or if not EXACT, super duper close to what we seen in 2k and now its gone when all you had to do was simply say make it a foul more............? Is there a black ice button for these clowns man. You boys should be like on pause for a couple of hours before you can make another comment, im at a lost for words yo. Unbelievable

Look at 0:12 VARIETY that is one of the ride contact animations I was talking about earlier that happens when have a weak defender. You will get an animation a little similar but just not ALL the time which is realistic.
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/9BQIp5bPsOQ" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>


MY WHOLE POINT IS 2K IS ATTEMPTING TO MAKE A REALISTIC GAME BALANCED BIT BY BIT BUT IF YOU TELL THEM REALISM IS NOT WHAT YOU WANT THEY ASSUME THEY WILL NOT GET YOUR MONEY, SO THEY CHANGE IT. All yall had to do was tell them to IMPROVE the bump animations or add more variety and trigger different ones NOT reduce them bc reducing them is making the game even less life like. So you can talk all this defensive stuff all you want to its nothing without bumps, collisions, Jostling and alot of it bc your not LETTING someone go where they want like you said earlier for some reason(smh) you are SUPPOSE to be FORCING them that way.

You said the physicality is overdone in a contact sport dude cmon with that shh man. You are disrespecting your intelligence in terms of basketball man. STOP, take a breath and think about what you are saying for a minute man. I promise i dont care about being right bruh, it seems like you care to much about being wrong bc anybody who plays basketball KNOWS expect to get bumped, pushed and everything else. You crying like everything is a foul. Every bump is a foul huh man.

[DatGD12guage]

Re: Post Patch On-Ball Defense

My second paragraph reads, "The problem is everyone here was complaining about excessive contact. While I won't comment on that, I will say that, if you watch an NBA game, there is not as much collisions because players are not mindlessly running through players."

As unrealistic as players claim the game was with the alleged excessive contact, the offensive game was and is just as unrealistic with online players holding down turbo all game and zig-zagging back and forth. The "unrealistic" contact was in response to the prevalence of unrealistic offense being played.

Now, the hordes of players who enjoy turboing to the basket from the three-point line with Dwight Howard can do so with little recourse because of the NOW unrealistic forcefield.

Again, regardless of whether people were getting "sucked" into contact, there must be contact when a player runs directly into another player. Period. To reiterate, I'm not commenting on how the game was pre-patch.

For the players who actually play the game the right way, and don't cheese, this game, post patch, has gone too far the wrong way. It's made it easier for cheesers to get around the defenders, although the game compensates with more loose balls.

One of the main reasons why I liked pre-patch better than post patch is because it punished players who refused to learn the game. My point of view on that, then, is the following: If players played unrealistically, they should be stopped unrealistically.

Im about to throw em a bone real quick. I realized a long time ago that press turbo is suction prone bc when you press it your movement is almost like straight line movement. They should go freelance practice and turbo up and down the court and try to like snake your way.


So I dont use turbo alot bc it sucks you into the defense so I may do a cross move and break out of it, no turbo so I can survey the floor better and decide what I want to do and if I do decide to drive I'll push it, but the ball has to be in the hand of the same direction you want to go for you to get that clean go(I'll try and do a vid for it this year). Most of the time when these guys press turbo they have pretty much decided what they are going to do.

I made this back in 2k12, I had more time to figure out how I was going to get to where I wanted. Some of these guys were trash but yeah.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/Tm8HotwiUp8" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[DatGD12guage]

Re: Post Patch On-Ball Defense

No one asked for zero contact when players are running directly into another. What was asked for was less contact at glancing angles from weak defenders. Thanks for speaking up for me however.

The hell? I don't think I've ever met, spoken with, or played against you-- really strange for you to be speaking anything about me.

I can fare fine with the pre-patch defense, but I deem it less than realistic because I watch games on a daily basis and defense is not played by sucking and bumping by weak defenders on mild contact. It is played by successful rotations and schemes and heavy contact is only exhibited and gotten away with by certain elite defenders and teams. The Warriors who lead the league in defense last season wasn't even one of them.

It was so ovepowered that people didn't notice how bad the pick and roll defense, rotations, and general team defense was for weeks, because it would have been exposed with realistic modelling of perimeter penetration.

Seriously, the hell? Maybe think about making cogent basketball arguments without taking shots at people you neither know or know anything about?

I DIDN'T make the assumption that you can't play defense and are only complaining because you need the crutch of unrealistic bumping, so I'd appreciate if the favor was returned.

Ok well lets cut the crap. In your opinion Is defense in nba 2k16 better post patch 3?