The FUNDAMENTAL issue with 2k17's AI Defense

[Graphik]

Re: The FUNDAMENTAL issue with 2k17's AI Defense

Dont know how much time you guys have spent with the game but I've been able to blow by the cpu AI at a normal pace per game. On all star default.

I play as the Bulls....Wade, Rondo and Butler can get free from time to time for nice contact layups by using the dribble moves. Doesn't happen every time as it shouldn't but I do get some nice drives and I'm usually met with help D.

[BQ32]

Re: The FUNDAMENTAL issue with 2k17's AI Defense

I thought it was perfect how it was in the prelude 2ku, somehow in the final version though they vamped the stickiness back up and it has become more frustrating to beat the AI. This pretty much ensures that off ball d will be used primarily and we will be stuck playing against a seemingly cheap AI. It also forces players to learn an exploit against the AI and online games to play out the same way.
Game would be much more fun and intriguing if you knew the AI could be beat often by great ball handlers and use tactics and help D to stop it. The added stickiness makes the game less intriguing. Not sure why they just didn't leave it like in the prelude.

[Black Bruce Wayne]

Re: The FUNDAMENTAL issue with 2k17's AI Defense

I still love defense more this year than last, but this post is something worth noting.

[Graphik]

Re: The FUNDAMENTAL issue with 2k17's AI Defense

I thought it was perfect how it was in the prelude 2ku, somehow in the final version though they vamped the stickiness back up and it has become more frustrating to beat the AI. This pretty much ensures that off ball d will be used primarily and we will be stuck playing against a seemingly cheap AI. It also forces players to learn an exploit against the AI and online games to play out the same way.
Game would be much more fun and intriguing if you knew the AI could be beat often by great ball handlers and use tactics and help D to stop it. The added stickiness makes the game less intriguing. Not sure why they just didn't leave it like in the prelude.

I also noticed the difference in how the prelude was vs. the final game. Its a noticeable difference on how much the AI sticks to you.

[The 24th Letter]

Re: The FUNDAMENTAL issue with 2k17's AI Defense

I thought it was perfect how it was in the prelude 2ku, somehow in the final version though they vamped the stickiness back up and it has become more frustrating to beat the AI. This pretty much ensures that off ball d will be used primarily and we will be stuck playing against a seemingly cheap AI. It also forces players to learn an exploit against the AI and online games to play out the same way.
Game would be much more fun and intriguing if you knew the AI could be beat often by great ball handlers and use tactics and help D to stop it. The added stickiness makes the game less intriguing. Not sure why they just didn't leave it like in the prelude.

Prelude was on Pro

[Bornindamecca]

Re: The FUNDAMENTAL issue with 2k17's AI Defense

Dont know how much time you guys have spent with the game but I've been able to blow by the cpu AI at a normal pace per game. On all star default.

I play as the Bulls....Wade, Rondo and Butler can get free from time to time for nice contact layups by using the dribble moves. Doesn't happen every time as it shouldn't but I do get some nice drives and I'm usually met with help D.

Now ya'll see why I write multiple disclaimers

I annihilate the All Star AI off the dribble. It's not about making defense easier to get past it's about getting it to behave properly. Please reread the original post. I'm only addressing this because the community needs to understand that when they are on the same page about something, it becomes a priority and the path to dealing with the issue is as straight a line as possible for the devs. Missing the point puts things in the white noise category and that's how ya'll got them skinny arms this year and Patch 4 last year.

[ruxpinke]

Re: The FUNDAMENTAL issue with 2k17's AI Defense

Prelude was on Pro

Might be time to move to Pro for me. Will make adjustments to shooting for CPU and lower my shooting to compensate. Anyone have an idea if I can increase offensive or defensive awareness to activate more ACE? or am i stuck with Pro if I want that feel?

[Whomario]

Re: The FUNDAMENTAL issue with 2k17's AI Defense

Might be time to move to Pro for me. Will make adjustments to shooting for CPU and lower my shooting to compensate. Anyone have an idea if I can increase offensive or defensive awareness to activate more ACE? or am i stuck with Pro if I want that feel?

Why not go the other way and adjust "down" ? The slider for "body up sensitivity" to 30-35 and maybe adjust on-ball defense.


Overall, i am definitely agreeing with the OP, would only make it issue(s) and add the botched double team logic which is 100% ruining the experience for anybody running as (in mycareer) or with a pass-first pg. It´s bad if the double teams come for scorers, it´s a gamebreaker if they start doubling an elite passer 40 feet from the basket because he got hot due to passing the ball well.

[ruxpinke]

Re: The FUNDAMENTAL issue with 2k17's AI Defense

Why not go the other way and adjust "down" ? The slider for "body up sensitivity" to 30-35 and maybe adjust on-ball defense.


Overall, i am definitely agreeing with the OP, would only make it issue(s) and add the botched double team logic which is 100% ruining the experience for anybody running as (in mycareer) or with a pass-first pg. It´s bad if the double teams come for scorers, it´s a gamebreaker if they start doubling an elite passer 40 feet from the basket because he got hot due to passing the ball well.

Im planning on taking a look at all the other things which can be at play here on the higher levels as well, Hustle, strength, on ball d, lateral quickness, etc. If I can have a game flow i prefer on pro, it might be easier to just adjust the shooting levels and leave all the other things alone, if that makes any sense.

[ronyell]

Re: The FUNDAMENTAL issue with 2k17's AI Defense

It seems that hard hedges at an extreme rate causes the hedger to be disconnected from his assigned man and causes the roller to move about freely while he spaces out in no mans land....

Also the AI's ability to switch on an open man during PnR or a user decides to do manual switch the AI ability to recognize a need to switch seems a bit lacking....(but to be honest the who to guard arrow is still pointing on the the assigned player a user just switched off from)

Recommendations :
1. Give users the ability to manually switch who they are guarding like on manual switches to cue original defender(AI) that a switch had accured....maybe by double tapping switch button (A/X) when pointing the right analog stick in the direction of the new intended person to guard....maybe this will help Cue the AI to better understand and react to users intentions and reassigned them the users's previous player he was guarding

All of this... Yes. Which is terrible for CPU vs CPU. The fix to the AIs defense from 2k16 to 2k17 seems to be solely recovery boosts and cpu coded to hard hedge almost every time. This can be seen by the "zig zag" animations and hard lateral movements.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Graphik]

Re: The FUNDAMENTAL issue with 2k17's AI Defense

Now ya'll see why I write multiple disclaimers

I annihilate the All Star AI off the dribble. It's not about making defense easier to get past it's about getting it to behave properly. Please reread the original post. I'm only addressing this because the community needs to understand that when they are on the same page about something, it becomes a priority and the path to dealing with the issue is as straight a line as possible for the devs. Missing the point puts things in the white noise category and that's how ya'll got them skinny arms this year and Patch 4 last year.

I get what you are saying but it's not as bad as some make it out to be. I see defensive rotations. I see if a player is mismatched, the AI immediately gets into positions and gets them the ball. I see if mismatched on the perimeter, I can finally get pass a taller, less athletic big man with much ease compared to last year. I see help D all the time. I see with enough practice with the dribbling moves and triple threat, you can create space off the dribble. I see players slow to get back in rotation allowing wide open uncontested jump shots.(something that was impossible in 2K16) I see big men struggling to get back on D after they stray to far out on a screen. I see double teams that actually work and aren't automatic stuck into a animation.

My point being is there is plenty to cheer about with defense this year. I don't think it will ever be fundamentally on par with a human but its great this year. The animations that I notice people are complaining about are there to keep you humble once you master the controls. Especially the ones which stop your ball handler once you get past. Some see it as AI cheese, I see it as a way to keep the games longevity. Each year once I get a handle on dribbling, the game gets easy and now I'm forced to play around with the sliders.

Not saying this game is perfect by any means but I'm willing to bet if you some of these issues were taken out or scalled back, then we would have new threads complaining on how easy it is to get into the lane. Idk, I'm just tryna see the positive out of the cpu AI. Lightyears better than anything they've put out.

[Bornindamecca]

Re: The FUNDAMENTAL issue with 2k17's AI Defense

The animations that I notice people are complaining about are there to keep you humble once you master the controls. Especially the ones which stop your ball handler once you get past. Some see it as AI cheese, I see it as a way to keep the games longevity. Each year once I get a handle on dribbling, the game gets easy and now I'm forced to play around with the sliders.

Idk, I'm just tryna see the positive out of the cpu AI. Lightyears better than anything they've put out.

Right here you have made my point and simultaneously missed it. The warping, magnetic, speed boosting, fouling AI is a band aid that's there to regulate those who have figured out how to consistently get past the AI. Why is it there? Because 2k needs overpowered one on one defense to provide a challenging game. Why is that? Because it doesn't rely enough on switching, rotations, and giving up open shots to decent/bad shooters. It treats every open shot with basically equal priority, every on ball AI defender with the same respect.

The whole point of this thread is to be critical of that approach so we can get a better result. I'm not saying this to name drop, but to be clear, my friends work not only on the game, but specifically on this part of the game. I have no desire to be hurtfully critical of them. They rely on the hardcore community for specific, analytical discussion of the issues because they want to be the absolute best and they can't do that alone on a short development cycle.

So I appreciate you pointing out the positives, but that is off topic unless you actually have a contrary perspective which would be: I think the on ball defense is working great, I think the ratings are well represented by AI on ball D and I think the help defense and switching is working fine.

Clearly that is not the case. I hope you, everyone on these boards and the devs who get this message understand that these kinds of critical threads are not insulting the devs or saying that everything is wrong, this game sucks and it's broken. In this case, I am saying that there is a FUNDAMENTAL flaw in the very approach to defense, and the execution of AI cheese recovery and fouling is a symptom of that disease.

Relevant to the point, Sam Pham and a bunch of folks on this board have pointed out that the hard hedging on PnRs is another serious issue. Since we can fix this on our team, I hope Scott or whoever is in charge of this kind of thing can make it so that a)Hard hedge success has increased awareness and is more ratings dependent and b)There is more soft hedging, which looks to be working very well.

[ksuttonjr76]

Re: The FUNDAMENTAL issue with 2k17's AI Defense

I must look at defense through different glasses than the majority. As a average skilled offensive player, I feel that AI defense and bumping is never on my list of concerns. Being mainly a PNO player, I feel that the overall animation is there prevent people from turboing through the defense or simulate a defender "beating you" to your spot. For me, you don't get the animation if you don't trying to go through the defender. Plus, getting past defenders is not difficult. It's not easy (as it should), but it's not difficult either.

Having said that, the skating effect of defense is much better this year, and 2K16's defense animations of ball handler vs defender was solid. I wouldn't mind a slight decrease in the bumping animations, BUT I really want to save my opinion regarding overall defense until they fix the coaching adjustments. My heart is telling that the bug is impacting AI defense under the hood.

[Bornindamecca]

Re: The FUNDAMENTAL issue with 2k17's AI Defense

I must look at defense through different glasses than the majority. As a average skilled offensive player, I feel that AI defense and bumping is never on my list of concerns. Being mainly a PNO player, I feel that the overall animation is there prevent people from turboing through the defense or simulate a defender "beating you" to your spot. For me, you don't get the animation if you don't trying to go through the defender. Plus, getting past defenders is not difficult. It's not easy (as it should), but it's not difficult either.

Having said that, the skating effect of defense is much better this year, and 2K16's defense animations of ball handler vs defender was solid. I wouldn't mind a slight decrease in the bumping animations, BUT I really want to save my opinion regarding overall defense until they fix the coaching adjustments. My heart is telling that the bug is impacting AI defense under the hood.

This is an issue that affects MyCareer, MyLeague, MyGM and Blacktop primarily. If you're playing head to head vs. another person, the same boosts don't appear to be in effect. I've also seen some concerns that the PS4 is tuned differently than the XB1. Allegedly it's faster and the juiced up speed is causing more warping and cheat recovery.

[2_headedmonster]

Re: The FUNDAMENTAL issue with 2k17's AI Defense

I thought it was perfect how it was in the prelude 2ku, somehow in the final version though they vamped the stickiness back up and it has become more frustrating to beat the AI. This pretty much ensures that off ball d will be used primarily and we will be stuck playing against a seemingly cheap AI. It also forces players to learn an exploit against the AI and online games to play out the same way.
Game would be much more fun and intriguing if you knew the AI could be beat often by great ball handlers and use tactics and help D to stop it. The added stickiness makes the game less intriguing. Not sure why they just didn't leave it like in the prelude.

The Prelude had body-up sensitivity on 30, if you want that feeling, put the slider on that setting.