The FUNDAMENTAL issue with 2k17's AI Defense

[Yesh2kdone]

Re: The FUNDAMENTAL issue with 2k17's AI Defense

This is an issue that affects MyCareer, MyLeague, MyGM and Blacktop primarily. If you're playing head to head vs. another person, the same boosts don't appear to be in effect. I've also seen some concerns that the PS4 is tuned differently than the XB1. Allegedly it's faster and the juiced up speed is causing more warping and cheat recovery.

I have both systems, and xbox 1 is hard for me to play as it feels laggy compared with the PS. I'm picking up a one s tomorrow so I'm hoping the improved machine yields better results.

[Graphik]

Re: The FUNDAMENTAL issue with 2k17's AI Defense

Right here you have made my point and simultaneously missed it. The warping, magnetic, speed boosting, fouling AI is a band aid that's there to regulate those who have figured out how to consistently get past the AI. Why is it there? Because 2k needs overpowered one on one defense to provide a challenging game. Why is that? Because it doesn't rely enough on switching, rotations, and giving up open shots to decent/bad shooters. It treats every open shot with basically equal priority, every on ball AI defender with the same respect.

The whole point of this thread is to be critical of that approach so we can get a better result. I'm not saying this to name drop, but to be clear, my friends work not only on the game, but specifically on this part of the game. I have no desire to be hurtfully critical of them. They rely on the hardcore community for specific, analytical discussion of the issues because they want to be the absolute best and they can't do that alone on a short development cycle.

So I appreciate you pointing out the positives, but that is off topic unless you actually have a contrary perspective which would be: I think the on ball defense is working great, I think the ratings are well represented by AI on ball D and I think the help defense and switching is working fine.

Clearly that is not the case. I hope you, everyone on these boards and the devs who get this message understand that these kinds of critical threads are not insulting the devs or saying that everything is wrong, this game sucks and it's broken. In this case, I am saying that there is a FUNDAMENTAL flaw in the very approach to defense, and the execution of AI cheese recovery and fouling is a symptom of that disease.

Relevant to the point, Sam Pham and a bunch of folks on this board have pointed out that the hard hedging on PnRs is another serious issue. Since we can fix this on our team, I hope Scott or whoever is in charge of this kind of thing can make it so that a)Hard hedge success has increased awareness and is more ratings dependent and b)There is more soft hedging, which looks to be working very well.

Point taken. I would love for the gameplay to be perfect as well. I'll leave the discussion to those who have a problem with it. It's definitely a AI crutch.

[ruxpinke]

Re: The FUNDAMENTAL issue with 2k17's AI Defense

The Prelude had body-up sensitivity on 30, if you want that feeling, put the slider on that setting.

If i would like to make this adjustment, and make the CPU less sticky, would i reduce the CPU slider or User?

[thormessiah]

Re: The FUNDAMENTAL issue with 2k17's AI Defense

Disclaimer: I have not had any trouble scoring against the AI. This is a discussion about how the defense thinks, not how difficult it is.

Gonna keep this short and simple. So much of the power went into stopping one-on-one penetration and passing into the middle, but the AI is pretty oblivious to switching situations and helping situations. I like the extra contact when it plays out well, though a lot of the recovery and warping just doesn't look good or realistic. But why is this happening? It's happening to stop people from spamming dribble moves and getting into the paint.

What happens if you can get past your defender either one on one or via the pick and roll? You score. One pass. MAYBE two passes. But that's now how good NBA defenses work. Great recovery is about great rotation, not the ability to stay in front of highly skilled, highly athletic ball handlers. If you could just stick a guy in front of Dame or Harden, defensive coaches would have a pretty easy job.

The defenses are supposed to plan for the breakdown, help, recover and when all else fails and you have to bend, give up third or fourth option the offense has. It all starts with dedicating more resources to strong areas of the court, not great on ball D, and certainly not seeing your big man defending a skilled perimeter player and thinking "it's okay, he's got that."

Great on ball D is a rarity and buffing the AI on ball recovery for the league makes it less special when we face Kawhi or Tony Allen.

They either send help or pack the paint, depending on the personnel and situation. I love the focus on punishing lazy interior pass attempts(though I hate the beach ball pass, fix that FIRST), but either in a patch or next year we need the devs to focus on great defenses being better at help, switching, rotation and giving up the lower percentage option. Less on unrealistic collisions and speed boosts.

Disclaimer II: I know how to break down the AI one-on-one. Change speeds, use your combos, don't user Turbo unless the combo requires it or you have a clear lane. It's not that hard. The thing is, the current system doesn't respect athleticism enough. The AI relies on cheats in several situations. I've watched the replays in slow motion and I can see exactly where and how the cheats are happening. This is a band aid covering up a lack of switching, help and rotation logic.

https://account.xbox.com/en-us/gameclip/a0625119-411f-45d8-9bfd-6c6d1348b8b7?gamerTag=volfwaley&scid=6d180100-980a-4f62-8771-84b716515bf0

Agree mate. Here's a clip of Vince Carter magically warping in front of PG on a fast break and getting called for a foul. A BLOCKING foul not a reach or a holding foul.

[tleev]

Re: The FUNDAMENTAL issue with 2k17's AI Defense

Disclaimer: I have not had any trouble scoring against the AI. This is a discussion about how the defense thinks, not how difficult it is.

Gonna keep this short and simple. So much of the power went into stopping one-on-one penetration and passing into the middle, but the AI is pretty oblivious to switching situations and helping situations. I like the extra contact when it plays out well, though a lot of the recovery and warping just doesn't look good or realistic. But why is this happening? It's happening to stop people from spamming dribble moves and getting into the paint.

What happens if you can get past your defender either one on one or via the pick and roll? You score. One pass. MAYBE two passes. But that's now how good NBA defenses work. Great recovery is about great rotation, not the ability to stay in front of highly skilled, highly athletic ball handlers. If you could just stick a guy in front of Dame or Harden, defensive coaches would have a pretty easy job.

The defenses are supposed to plan for the breakdown, help, recover and when all else fails and you have to bend, give up third or fourth option the offense has. It all starts with dedicating more resources to strong areas of the court, not great on ball D, and certainly not seeing your big man defending a skilled perimeter player and thinking "it's okay, he's got that."

Great on ball D is a rarity and buffing the AI on ball recovery for the league makes it less special when we face Kawhi or Tony Allen.

They either send help or pack the paint, depending on the personnel and situation. I love the focus on punishing lazy interior pass attempts(though I hate the beach ball pass, fix that FIRST), but either in a patch or next year we need the devs to focus on great defenses being better at help, switching, rotation and giving up the lower percentage option. Less on unrealistic collisions and speed boosts.

Disclaimer II: I know how to break down the AI one-on-one. Change speeds, use your combos, don't user Turbo unless the combo requires it or you have a clear lane. It's not that hard. The thing is, the current system doesn't respect athleticism enough. The AI relies on cheats in several situations. I've watched the replays in slow motion and I can see exactly where and how the cheats are happening. This is a band aid covering up a lack of switching, help and rotation logic.

You sir, have just echoed my sentiment on defense to a T. Great post I hope someone from 2k sees this and takes note, because this has been my greatest pet peeve with 2k basketball.

[sirjam]

Re: The FUNDAMENTAL issue with 2k17's AI Defense

Have u guys tried to test on Hof? In a vid Czar said 100% ace is unlocked on Hof. All star u get I think 50%. The a.i gets shooting boost and other on Hof but u can adjust them. Which brings a issue of them still hitting crazy shots after u play great d which can be infuriating. But the CPU d and help seems better.

[BegBy]

Re: The FUNDAMENTAL issue with 2k17's AI Defense

Bumping because this thread is near and dear to my (basketball) heart. It's one of, if not the most serious downside to the title this year and will continue to hinder the series if it continues without being addressed.

As an aside, but related note - I have messed with sliders that focus on making defenders less sticky and really toning down the overly physical aspect of the defense. One of the sliders that has played a huge role is defensive consistency. Lowering it to 15 makes the biggest difference in all aspects of CPU defensive play. Sadly, at times, it really makes the cpu defense pretty dumb, but I almost think it's worth it. Lowering on ball defense to 40 or so is also a help. I'm not saying these numbers are perfect, or that they make things super awesome, but they really do change the whole physical/super human reaction of the cpu defense. Of all the slider changes I have made, these 2 make the largest difference with consistency being the biggest factor. The other factor, while not being a slider issue, is the use of turbo. We've known for years now that activating turbo triggers some sort of collision/make the defender robot awesome mechanic. I find with these slider adjustments the use of turbo is needed less, which in turn results in less of what we don't want to see.

Maybe if things are not/cannot be addressed in a patch we can really work on finding a slider set that makes things a bit less super human NFL and a lot more exceptional NBA.

[Bornindamecca]

Re: The FUNDAMENTAL issue with 2k17's AI Defense

https://account.xbox.com/en-us/gamec...1-84b716515bf0
Agree mate. Here's a clip of Vince Carter magically warping in front of PG on a fast break and getting called for a foul. A BLOCKING foul not a reach or a holding foul.

GREAT example. There is nothing about Vince Carter that should allow that play to happen which leads to one of the major issues with the kinds of problems in 2k.

Many animations in 2k are not regulated by the ratings. Slow players become fast. Fast players become slow. Strong players become weak and vice versa, because these animations are not regulated the same way turbo and dunks are.

[33JAF]

Re: The FUNDAMENTAL issue with 2k17's AI Defense

Great post. There are a lot of bad things going on with the AI. I think the biggest problem is that 2k has too much going on under the hood. They have been overambitious adding things to the game while also taking shortcuts and neglecting legacy issues. It's missing key basketball fundamentals.

I would love for them to spend one cycle just fixing and tuning, rather than adding and expanding, but it would never go over well because people would complain about how not enough has changed. Those on top at 2k would never allow for it either.

I am really hoping that the post release support is big this year. This is the first time I am actually regretting buying the game. As a strictly offline vs CPU guy, I just can't play it in it's current state.

Here are some highlights and brief comments from a game I just watched, CPU vs CPU. I do this every year when I get the game to see how the AI is. It is a game within a game for me to edit and tune sliders to max out the CPUs potential. I saw a couple of odd things and decided to start recording them, and after the game was over I ended up with 7 minutes worth of short clips of the AI just being plain awful. Trust me, I am not one of those guys who gets his kicks from hating on 2k. I have always loved this game, but I am losing my faith.

Just check this out. CPUvCPU on superstar default. This is all from the same game. Please forgive my terrible editing skills.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/5whUDJRHS7I" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[strawberryshortcake]

Re: The FUNDAMENTAL issue with 2k17's AI Defense

https://account.xbox.com/en-us/gamec...1-84b716515bf0
Agree mate. Here's a clip of Vince Carter magically warping in front of PG on a fast break and getting called for a foul. A BLOCKING foul not a reach or a holding foul.

When you said magically warp, I was actually expecting feet skating and sliding into position. But as I was watching that short clip while keeping my eyes focused on Vince Carter's footwork, I didn't see skating or sliding (I replayed it about 5 times). The problem here is that Paul George couldn't explode to the rim with a quick first step when Carter was behind George.

[Dione2014]

Re: The FUNDAMENTAL issue with 2k17's AI Defense

Disclaimer: I have not had any trouble scoring against the AI. This is a discussion about how the defense thinks, not how difficult it is.

Gonna keep this short and simple. So much of the power went into stopping one-on-one penetration and passing into the middle, but the AI is pretty oblivious to switching situations and helping situations. I like the extra contact when it plays out well, though a lot of the recovery and warping just doesn't look good or realistic. But why is this happening? It's happening to stop people from spamming dribble moves and getting into the paint.

What happens if you can get past your defender either one on one or via the pick and roll? You score. One pass. MAYBE two passes. But that's now how good NBA defenses work. Great recovery is about great rotation, not the ability to stay in front of highly skilled, highly athletic ball handlers. If you could just stick a guy in front of Dame or Harden, defensive coaches would have a pretty easy job.

The defenses are supposed to plan for the breakdown, help, recover and when all else fails and you have to bend, give up third or fourth option the offense has. It all starts with dedicating more resources to strong areas of the court, not great on ball D, and certainly not seeing your big man defending a skilled perimeter player and thinking "it's okay, he's got that."

Great on ball D is a rarity and buffing the AI on ball recovery for the league makes it less special when we face Kawhi or Tony Allen.

They either send help or pack the paint, depending on the personnel and situation. I love the focus on punishing lazy interior pass attempts(though I hate the beach ball pass, fix that FIRST), but either in a patch or next year we need the devs to focus on great defenses being better at help, switching, rotation and giving up the lower percentage option. Less on unrealistic collisions and speed boosts.

Disclaimer II: I know how to break down the AI one-on-one. Change speeds, use your combos, don't user Turbo unless the combo requires it or you have a clear lane. It's not that hard. The thing is, the current system doesn't respect athleticism enough. The AI relies on cheats in several situations. I've watched the replays in slow motion and I can see exactly where and how the cheats are happening. This is a band aid covering up a lack of switching, help and rotation logic.

I've been trying to explain this to people for a very long time. All i ever get is the oh so obvious response along the lines of " git gud noob" or " you suck!". I feel crazy because as a person who's been playing basketball and following it for 18+ years, I know how defense is played... And 2K ain't it by a long shot. But yet I still have people trying to tell me other wise. Great post and great observation.

[AIisBroken]

Re: The FUNDAMENTAL issue with 2k17's AI Defense

Great post. There are a lot of bad things going on with the AI. I think the biggest problem is that 2k has too much going on under the hood. They have been overambitious adding things to the game while also taking shortcuts and neglecting legacy issues. It's missing key basketball fundamentals.

I would love for them to spend one cycle just fixing and tuning, rather than adding and expanding, but it would never go over well because people would complain about how not enough has changed. Those on top at 2k would never allow for it either.

I am really hoping that the post release support is big this year. This is the first time I am actually regretting buying the game. As a strictly offline vs CPU guy, I just can't play it in it's current state.

Here are some highlights and brief comments from a game I just watched, CPU vs CPU. I do this every year when I get the game to see how the AI is. It is a game within a game for me to edit and tune sliders to max out the CPUs potential. I saw a couple of odd things and decided to start recording them, and after the game was over I ended up with 7 minutes worth of short clips of the AI just being plain awful. Trust me, I am not one of those guys who gets his kicks from hating on 2k. I have always loved this game, but I am losing my faith.

Just check this out. CPUvCPU on superstar default. This is all from the same game. Please forgive my terrible editing skills.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/5whUDJRHS7I" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Great post, you nailed it. AI is a complete joke and all this ACE stuff hasn't done anything to remedy how broken it is.

I realize we are in the minority for caring about the realism of the AI more than new game modes or extra features, but I just want the developers to know I'm done with future iterations of this game if something isn't done to drastically improve these areas in a patch.

[The 24th Letter]

Re: The FUNDAMENTAL issue with 2k17's AI Defense

The stickiness of the CPU is especially frustrating this year for me....playing on Superstar/HOF. The drive and kick game feels non existent offline because I dont see enough clean blow bys.

Im all about adapting/ learning the moves and preached that throughout the entire 2K16 campaign...but its just so obnoxious to me this year...AI mirroring your moves....can still impede your progress completely turned around.....

Online is great because the human factor comes into play but I have to say offline has been a bit meh for me so far..

[ch46647]

Re: The FUNDAMENTAL issue with 2k17's AI Defense

The stickiness of the CPU is especially frustrating this year for me....playing on Superstar/HOF. The drive and kick game feels non existent offline because I dont see enough clean blow bys.

Im all about adapting/ learning the moves and preached that throughout the entire 2K16 campaign...but its just so obnoxious to me this year...AI mirroring your moves....can still impede your progress completely turned around.....

Online is great because the human factor comes into play but I have to say offline has been a bit meh for me so far..

With regards to CPU defenders stickyness/mirroring.. You feel 2K17 is worse than 2K16? I think 2K17 could still use some work, but to me it feels better than 2K16. I'm convinced its a boost that the devs build in the game for balance. I wish they'd remove it

[The 24th Letter]

Re: The FUNDAMENTAL issue with 2k17's AI Defense

With regards to CPU defenders stickyness/mirroring.. You feel 2K17 is worse than 2K16? I think 2K17 could still use some work, but to me it feels better than 2K16. I'm convinced its a boost that the devs build in the game for balance. I wish they'd remove it

I definitely do....2K16 was up and down with it all year last year but I dont ever think it was as bad as 2K17 is right now.

Maybe I am missing something.