Simnation are y'all still around?

[23]

Re: Simnation are y'all still around?

But how would you ever get this into the hands of an actual dev ? If you COULD do that and have it to someone by say... late November early December you might be on to something. But I digress.

I'm trying to think how to manage the collection and presentation/summary writing of such a thing. I think it would need a high level executive summary backed by specific items.

Czar, if someone were to create an invitation access only google spreadsheet or I could even do it with a survey monkey form, and organize the data in columns to gather things like, off the top of my head, game mode, issue summary (2-3 sentenced tops), recommendation summary (2-3 sentences tops), issue details (more text allowed) video link(s), contributor name/pseudonym, contributor contact email. . . that could collect a lot of data.

The thing then would be to provide some review and cluster the items into categories (presentation, game play, archetypes, etc.) and create/write some kind of high level summary. The output would then be a spreadsheet of data and some amount of summary text as pdf.


My question to you, Czar, is how critical would it be to create that kind of high level summary? Would it need to be created for just the dev audience or would it need to be targeted as well to the business types who approve budgets? Would we need to offer to partner with some higher audience people like Mazique ot Sam Pham to publicize 2K's collaboration with #simnation people, and in doing so offer promotion, or is that the kind of precedent 2k would rather not set?

Just spitballing here.

Hey Czar, since you're perusing the forums, what did you think about the suggestion of having a CPU reaction slider, to eliminate the 1:1 reaction to step backs, etc? It will eliminate the psychic feeling that comes w the super AI and allow a more natural looking reaction.

How would simnation feel about an official document we put to the devs prior to the beginning of every development cycle? We use a thread to compile a list of issues and suggested improvements (with accompanying video evidence).

Send it as a PDF or digital compendium. Get our own logo, elect a representative or a small team to act as our official voices. (Lorenzo? Vannwolf? 23? Bama rob? Jeebs?)

That way we will filter out the ideas that arent great and be able to present a list of 5-10 doable things that are nicely compiled and articulated.

Simnation can't compete in terms of loudness, but we can get our points across better.

Here's our chance, 23 or Dirk take lead?



Hollywood & Horsehoes

It's THIS kind of thinking that is one of the reasons I started this thread, we need to get together in a multi-front collab. We might not be loudest, but we can be smarter.

Czar doesn't need to do any Google Docs, we need to create something like a Discord, or slack, a Hangouts group to submit things, and pick a designated person.


-wtf, more i think about it, if you could also increase the CPU's defense that way then it could make sense.

So it's going to take some brain storming, however, we can't put Czar in the middle of it, we have to do it.. get a twitter hashtag going and eventually you'll get some one to push it on youtube.

[jersez]

Re: Simnation are y'all still around?

*Raises hand slowly*Jerseymade93 present lol, I just got back into 2k actually was on it with my pc with the mods but offline gets boring pretty quickly put the game down until last week just hitting the play now online streets. And somehow I ended up in the greatest of all time league in a short period of time, got lucky with a few rage quitters I guess lol. But looking forward to 19. And wolf we tried to do your idea with the usgl, so you might be able to search it on twitch and YouTube and find some of the old games back then.. the league is discontinued but would love to see something similar put together by some sim nation young blood

[23]

Re: Simnation are y'all still around?

My man Jersey in the building!

Sent from my LG-LS998 using Tapatalk

[OfficialQbN]

Re: Simnation are y'all still around?

It's THIS kind of thinking that is one of the reasons I started this thread, we need to get together in a multi-front collab. We might not be loudest, but we can be smarter.

Czar doesn't need to do any Google Docs, we need to create something like a Discord, or slack, a Hangouts group to submit things, and pick a designated person.


-wtf, more i think about it, if you could also increase the CPU's defense that way then it could make sense.

So it's going to take some brain storming, however, we can't put Czar in the middle of it, we have to do it.. get a twitter hashtag going and eventually you'll get some one to push it on youtube.

+1 for Discord... Steve could put up a discord for OS or one of the guys could do it

[mfdoom911e]

Re: Simnation are y'all still around?

I'd love love to watch some skilled "sim" players utilizing the options Czar and OG have given us. The my player eleague stuff isn't for me. I get it. It's just not my cup of tea. I'd much rather see someone employing some cool strategies utilizing the strengths and weaknesses of the real teams. That's skill to me. Someone taking the Kings and destroying folks because they know the team so well. I'd watch that. I watch a lot of CPU v CPU (I may be in the middle of a game and start preparing dinner or something) gameplay and it's pretty good.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Operation Sports mobile app

yeah me too is there someone who play like this??? i just want to watch, Youtube account?? only the people using "Broadcast Cam", cant watch people using 2k cam sorry, the realistic part is gone from that view, in my personal opinion.

any list? thank you in advance.

[MarkWilliam]

Re: Simnation are y'all still around?

I just want defense to react appropriately. I don't know if I've even seen the CPU bite on one of my head fakes on HOF difficulty.

I gotta say, I REALLY feel this whenever I post up. I do drop steps, head fakes, up and unders, fake baseline, fake middle etc. AI literally doesn't react at all 90% of the time. Then I take the shot and they jump the very second I release the ball. Feels like it's coded and linked to mirror my moves down there......

[WTF]

Re: Simnation are y'all still around?

Feels like it's coded, because it is coded,

User input = Instant CPU response

Case in point, I got hot with Wiggins last night, running a great offense, and running him off of screens, freeing him up for mid range jumpers like crazy somehow. They sent the double, didn't matter, I was killing it.

Seeing as how I scored 16 straight with him, you'd think the defense would be all about taking that away from him. I'd come off of screens, and try to pump fake to draw the defender up in the air, and they didn't bite at all. They knew I wasn't shooting, lol. I just want them to react realistically.

If I'm guarding someone, and they're killing me off the jumper, I'm going to aggressively attack them, to try to get them out of the rhythm. My coach used to tell me to put them on their ***, make them worry about shooting the jumper.

[MarkWilliam]

Re: Simnation are y'all still around?

Yeah there definitely are times where it could feel more organic in this regard I feel.

My mind immediately darts in the "band aid fix" area when the AI just mirrors my offensive moves without fail. Like a band aid fix to make more shots contested which results in more missed shots and more realistic shooting percentages.... it's almost a speculative gripe but apparently not just by one person....

[Junior Moe]

Re: Simnation are y'all still around?

yeah me too is there someone who play like this??? i just want to watch, Youtube account?? only the people using "Broadcast Cam", cant watch people using 2k cam sorry, the realistic part is gone from that view, in my personal opinion.

any list? thank you in advance.

I'm with you, broadcast for life; even in MyCareer. I imagine that there are some Youtubers like that. I only use YouTube to watch Wrestling with Wrwgrets reviews of old pay per views. Sadly, you might have to try them all and trudge through the over the top guys to find it.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Operation Sports mobile app

[Da_Czar]

Re: Simnation are y'all still around?

Hey Czar, since you're perusing the forums, what did you think about the suggestion of having a CPU reaction slider, to eliminate the 1:1 reaction to step backs, etc? It will eliminate the psychic feeling that comes w the super AI and allow a more natural looking reaction.

I like the concept for sure. That would be something to get in Mikes' ear about. OG made a change recently that may enhance that in our current game but to get it put in the front-end where you guys can see it would be up Mike's alley.

[Da_Czar]

Re: Simnation are y'all still around?

I'm trying to think how to manage the collection and presentation/summary writing of such a thing. I think it would need a high level executive summary backed by specific items.

Czar, if someone were to create an invitation access only google spreadsheet or I could even do it with a survey monkey form, and organize the data in columns to gather things like, off the top of my head, game mode, issue summary (2-3 sentenced tops), recommendation summary (2-3 sentences tops), issue details (more text allowed) video link(s), contributor name/pseudonym, contributor contact email. . . that could collect a lot of data.

The thing then would be to provide some review and cluster the items into categories (presentation, game play, archetypes, etc.) and create/write some kind of high level summary. The output would then be a spreadsheet of data and some amount of summary text as pdf.


My question to you, Czar, is how critical would it be to create that kind of high level summary? Would it need to be created for just the dev audience or would it need to be targeted as well to the business types who approve budgets? Would we need to offer to partner with some higher audience people like Mazique ot Sam Pham to publicize 2K's collaboration with #simnation people, and in doing so offer promotion, or is that the kind of precedent 2k would rather not set?

Just spitballing here.

I think targeting it towards just dev's initially would be best. If we are able to get buy-in from the dev who owns the feature then they can request further info if needed to put out any executive fires.

The key is to be extremely specific without turning it into a gigantic unattainable wish-list. Also, think in terms of how long you have seen it take us to implement new things. So if it is a bigger change what would you want to see over a 2-3 year implementation of that change? If that makes any sense?

[Da_Czar]

Re: Simnation are y'all still around?

Thus the need for a slider. Customize it as you see fit. In my eyes, having the defender react in a 1:1 reaction time, is unrealistic. I get what you're saying, but having the on ball defenders reaction a tad slower, makes relying on adequate help defense even more prominent. On the offensive side, watching for the help d to rotate and finding the open man would open up the floor for quality shots. Make the help defense react and help on ball.

I'm not saying slow them down much at all, but enough that it's not cheesy. That's one of the biggest reasons for the lack of open baseline jumpers, which you see quite a bit in the league. As you input the control to pass for the jumper, the CPU has already read it and reacted, fully contesting the shot.

I just want defense to react appropriately. I don't know if I've even seen the CPU bite on one of my head fakes on HOF difficulty.

Also key to note, if this were super easy it would have been done by now. Looking at this a solely a hoop issue makes it seem simple but even if we gave you the slider there is no guarantee that the issue you think it will fix is actually even in that system.

But again these are not my areas I am just thinking out loud here.

[Da_Czar]

Re: Simnation are y'all still around?

What should really make you sick is how few top level Pro-Am players who dont exploit, know basketball, have clean records, and have been playing 2K for years couldn't get into the NBA2K League when we actually use real moves to score instead of relying on exploiting...

I didn't get even get considered for the top 250 despite meeting all of the above criteria and I watched top level sim pro-am players with good character get cut in favor of people who exploit & were terrible in the community...

Just to be clear, I'm not blaming 2K for that because they didn't make the roster decisions, I am however sad because I believe it tarnishes the image of the game we love to play and it limits growth for the 2K League. The e-sports identity for NBA2K cant be one where the top players are leaning on exploits to win matches like a crutch.

We need MORE people in the 2K League who know basketball, don't exploit, can run plays, aren't punks, and know how to play 2K. Sim Nation needs more of a foothold in the 2K League if its going to be a viable e-sports avenue long-term.

I wouldn't mind seeing a game-play committee formulated for the 2K League with SamPham & some of the SimNation OS guys in an attempt to mold the identity of the league more towards sim...

Truthfully, the game just has to get better in a competitive sense. To me, that presents more of an opportunity to introduce actual basketball concepts as fundamental design choices. If you are a hoop purist that is definitely painful to watch but hopefully it forces or pushes the game to develop even faster than it would otherwise as a competitive product.

[Da_Czar]

Re: Simnation are y'all still around?

One of the first things on the list for next year (if its not fixed) is removing all celebrations post-made baskets. Its so easy for people to exploit the AI meandering in the backcourt giving thumbs up to the people in the front row while the guy they're supposed to be guarding is 30ft away wide open (or you end up having to have mismatches just for this reason).

Second is the forcefield preventing people from going out of bounds when driving baseline. Its actually funny how in real life defenses want defenders going baseline because the tight space between the defender and out of bounds, but in 2k people are purposely trying to drive baseline every possession because the baseline isn't considered a second defender.

I think Mazique preview said something about this. It is definitely easier to go out of bounds in 19. I don't think everyone will be in favor of this change.

Also, OG worked on on-ball steals so you can't just stand there and sauce up the Ai without protecting the ball or its rip city. If we don't tune that down that will be one of the first things you notice. The AI is overall more sturdy defensively( as of the time of this writing)

[Da_Czar]

Re: Simnation are y'all still around?

Feels like it's coded, because it is coded,

User input = Instant CPU response

Case in point, I got hot with Wiggins last night, running a great offense, and running him off of screens, freeing him up for mid range jumpers like crazy somehow. They sent the double, didn't matter, I was killing it.

Seeing as how I scored 16 straight with him, you'd think the defense would be all about taking that away from him. I'd come off of screens, and try to pump fake to draw the defender up in the air, and they didn't bite at all. They knew I wasn't shooting, lol. I just want them to react realistically.

If I'm guarding someone, and they're killing me off the jumper, I'm going to aggressively attack them, to try to get them out of the rhythm. My coach used to tell me to put them on their ***, make them worry about shooting the jumper.

Yea, again you need the AI systems in place to be able to do that. In some previous games, the AI defensive movement was such that anything less than what we tuned the game for and the actually couldn't guard you at all.

Sometimes you ship something because you have to, the realistic tuning would have the game completely broken. You have to give the AI the tools to do everything you can do in real life and that is no simple task when you can only add a piece or two each year.

Our defensive AI has been had the intelligence to do what you're requesting but the actual implementation has been a bit behind due mostly to the integration of all the other systems needing to catch up. The closer we get the better the experience and the more realistic we can tune things including reaction times.

I have found that creating depth in video-games is a really slow process because you have to build out the infrastructure to support your vision and one part of an idea can take your engineer 2-4 months to build. Well, if you need 4 major pieces created and you can't just ship a single feature for a year's worth of work. ( nobody wants to buy a roster update) Now you're looking at 2 maybe three years worth of work to create something new that 10% of your fanbase will even notice. It can be quite a challenge.

Now, what if the help you need is from another dev and his engineer and they already have a years worth of projects on the table?

The simplest thing is identifying the problem, AI reacts too fast, the issues are all in the solutions and the time it takes to implement a full, accurate fix across all systems involved in creating the issue.

If you are new these are the types of discussions we used to have on here all the time. Sharing what some of the actual challenges are because before I became a dev, this is stuff we always said we wanted to know.