Simnation are y'all still around?

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  • Smirkin Dirk
    All Star
    • Oct 2008
    • 5178

    #376
    Re: Simnation are y'all still around?

    Originally posted by Da_Czar
    I think targeting it towards just dev's initially would be best. If we are able to get buy-in from the dev who owns the feature then they can request further info if needed to put out any executive fires.

    The key is to be extremely specific without turning it into a gigantic unattainable wish-list. Also, think in terms of how long you have seen it take us to implement new things. So if it is a bigger change what would you want to see over a 2-3 year implementation of that change? If that makes any sense?
    We'll put our heads together and come up with something.

    We might play the game first. What if 2K19 fixes every single issue.

    Sim nation like "Trying to list all complaints from the last 16 years, then realising 2k fixed them all".

    Last edited by Smirkin Dirk; 07-31-2018, 06:03 AM.
    2022 'Plug and play' sim roster (XBX)

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    • OfficialQbN
      Rookie
      • Sep 2015
      • 163

      #377
      Re: Simnation are y'all still around?

      Originally posted by Da_Czar
      Truthfully, the game just has to get better in a competitive sense. To me, that presents more of an opportunity to introduce actual basketball concepts as fundamental design choices. If you are a hoop purist that is definitely painful to watch but hopefully it forces or pushes the game to develop even faster than it would otherwise as a competitive product.
      I agree with this however it should be incumbent on the players in the NBA2K League & the community to understand what the exploits are and avoid using them to win at all costs...

      These guys know what they're doing isn't meant to be used, they know its a flaw in the game mechanics and they choose to use it anyway. Exploiting broken game play mechanics is something rarely found in other AAA titles in the competitive scene because pro players frown upon or were restricted from using them per the tournament rules. Its more so a question of respect for your opponents and the game you're playing.

      Take for example a known map bug in a FPS that allows a player to shoot through walls, all the top players know the exploit but don't use it because its considered taboo and could get them excommunicated from pro circuits.

      The thing that separates the NBA2K player-base from that of other games is most of our player base actively seek out exploits and try to maximize use of them for personal gain and are celebrated for doing so.

      So ultimately while I do agree with you Czar that the game does have to get better in a competitive sense, the responsibility of maintaining a sound e-sports environment isn't solely inherent on the developers alone. Developers, tournament organizers, as well as top level players must be strident and concordant in their efforts to limit use of exploits so that an atmosphere of illegitimate means to an end isn't allowed to fester and create a bad example for new players getting into the game.
      Last edited by OfficialQbN; 07-31-2018, 05:47 AM.
      Find me on YouTube/Twitch/Twitter/ QuickButNeat

      Member Of OS Since 2013 (Formerly QB1N)

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      • JoFri
        Pro
        • Mar 2013
        • 1486

        #378
        Re: Simnation are y'all still around?

        Originally posted by WTF;
        Thus the need for a slider. Customize it as you see fit. In my eyes, having the defender react in a 1:1 reaction time, is unrealistic. I get what you're saying, but having the on ball defenders reaction a tad slower, makes relying on adequate help defense even more prominent. On the offensive side, watching for the help d to rotate and finding the open man would open up the floor for quality shots. Make the help defense react and help on ball.



        I'm not saying slow them down much at all, but enough that it's not cheesy. That's one of the biggest reasons for the lack of open baseline jumpers, which you see quite a bit in the league. As you input the control to pass for the jumper, the CPU has already read it and reacted, fully contesting the shot.



        I just want defense to react appropriately. I don't know if I've even seen the CPU bite on one of my head fakes on HOF difficulty.

        I saw a "reaction time" attribute under defense. Is this not meant to be? I always play around with this attribute when I find my centers are a step slow in shot blocking or help on defense.

        an intelligent defender does not easily bite on a pump fake irl. So I was really impressed with Javale's patience in the paint as he timed his jump very well. Now translating this to the player's attribute, we can consider an intelligent defender = high defense iq + high reaction time in HOF slider, and mid defense iq + mid reaction time in SS slider. So with a low defense iq + quick reaction time, we can expect the cpu defender to bite on 90% of the time on pump fakes and high defense iq + low reaction time will bite 5% of the pump fakes. The logic that alter the success of the shot will depend on the shot contest slider (whether jump or hands up affects the makes). So if I happen to shoot and the defender happens to jump to contest, the success rate will be lower.

        Does it make sense?




        Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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        • turty11
          All Star
          • Apr 2013
          • 8923

          #379
          Re: Simnation are y'all still around?

          Watching that 2k league video..i had to turn it off after about 40 seconds because it was killing my brain cells to try to watch these "pro gamers" who are supposed to be the best at 2k completely struggle to play good basketball. Use the cheese on offense then on defense just constantly press steal and sag off 10 feet.


          2k should be EMBARRASSED that this is their "esports" representation.
          NBA 2k19 Roster and Draft project for PS4

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          • jfsolo
            Live Action, please?
            • May 2003
            • 12965

            #380
            Re: Simnation are y'all still around?

            Originally posted by OfficialQbN
            I agree with this however it should be incumbent on the players in the NBA2K League & the community to understand what the exploits are and avoid using them to win at all costs...

            These guys know what they're doing isn't meant to be used, they know its a flaw in the game mechanics and they choose to use it anyway. Exploiting broken game play mechanics is something rarely found in other AAA titles in the competitive scene because pro players frown upon or were restricted from using them per the tournament rules. Its more so a question of respect for your opponents and the game you're playing.

            Take for example a known map bug in a FPS that allows a player to shoot through walls, all the top players know the exploit but don't use it because its considered taboo and could get them excommunicated from pro circuits.

            The thing that separates the NBA2K player-base from that of other games is most of our player base actively seek out exploits and try to maximize use of them for personal gain and are celebrated for doing so.

            So ultimately while I do agree with you Czar that the game does have to get better in a competitive sense, the responsibility of maintaining a sound e-sports environment isn't solely inherent on the developers alone. Developers, tournament organizers, as well as top level players must be strident and concordant in their efforts to limit use of exploits so that an atmosphere of illegitimate means to an end isn't allowed to fester and create a bad example for new players getting into the game.
            I can't speak to non sports games, but players in competitive e-sports environments will never limit their use of effective(exploitative) tactics unless forced to by the game or some governing or organizing body. They don't care about how bad the game looks or setting a bad example for new players, or growing the league, or anything other than winning games however they can.

            It may not be right, but all the heavy lifting is really on the development team. Maybe this is too cynical, but I don't think that anyone else on the inside of the process really cares about the how much of a sham the experience is right now. If I was the big cheese, I would have cancelled the whole league for the year after that mockery of game with the 84 points coming off of the 5 Out Iso nonsense.
            Jordan Mychal Lemos
            @crypticjordan

            Do this today: Instead of $%*#!@& on a game you're not going to play or movie you're not going to watch, say something good about a piece of media you're excited about.

            Do the same thing tomorrow. And the next. Now do it forever.

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            • stickyfingers
              Rookie
              • Jul 2018
              • 458

              #381
              Re: Simnation are y'all still around?

              Originally posted by turty11
              Watching that 2k league video..i had to turn it off after about 40 seconds because it was killing my brain cells to try to watch these "pro gamers" who are supposed to be the best at 2k completely struggle to play good basketball. Use the cheese on offense then on defense just constantly press steal and sag off 10 feet.


              2k should be EMBARRASSED that this is their "esports" representation.
              someone sooner in this thread wrote that this is a community issue.
              but i dont think so : IMO it's a gameplay issue because :
              - this kind of game doesnt exist in real life
              - it doesnt happen on Fifa or PES leagues.
              Last edited by stickyfingers; 08-01-2018, 11:40 AM.
              X / Twitter | YouTube | OS Old 2K Mods | OS 2K25 Mods

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              • WTF
                MVP
                • Aug 2002
                • 20274

                #382
                Re: Simnation are y'all still around?

                Originally posted by JoFri
                I saw a "reaction time" attribute under defense. Is this not meant to be? I always play around with this attribute when I find my centers are a step slow in shot blocking or help on defense.

                an intelligent defender does not easily bite on a pump fake irl. So I was really impressed with Javale's patience in the paint as he timed his jump very well. Now translating this to the player's attribute, we can consider an intelligent defender = high defense iq + high reaction time in HOF slider, and mid defense iq + mid reaction time in SS slider. So with a low defense iq + quick reaction time, we can expect the cpu defender to bite on 90% of the time on pump fakes and high defense iq + low reaction time will bite 5% of the pump fakes. The logic that alter the success of the shot will depend on the shot contest slider (whether jump or hands up affects the makes). So if I happen to shoot and the defender happens to jump to contest, the success rate will be lower.

                Does it make sense?




                Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

                I hadn't actually seen that before. I was thinking of having a full on slider, whereas that attribute could do the trick. I'll try to play around with it a bit. If it's lowering all players by 10, or 5, or whatever... if it will yield a more realistic looking result, without breaking something else, that may be my fix. Thanks for that.

                Thanks for chiming in Czar. As always, your participation in the community is definitely appreciated.

                I think seeing the game from the inside on a limited scope w/ the GC program, sitting with the devs, etc was able to provide some insight into their specific practices, schedules, workloads, etc. When I think of 2k, I think of a giant conglomerate that is such an oiled machine, sometimes my expectations get too large and unrealistic. i know you guys have the ability, and the people in place to do things, but the ability to fix them all in one rotation, my bad, haha. You all have done some fantastic things, which I guess leads us all to expect greatness each and every year. So I guess, in a way, that's a major compliment to you all, lol.
                Twitter - WTF_OS
                #DropMeAFollow

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                • mfdoom911e
                  Pro
                  • Nov 2017
                  • 564

                  #383
                  Re: Simnation are y'all still around?

                  Originally posted by stickyfingers
                  someone sooner in this thread wrote that this is a community issue.
                  but i dont think so : IMO it's a gameplay issue because :
                  - this kind of game doesnt exist in real life
                  - it doesnt happen on Fifa or PES leagues.
                  in my honest opinion its a mix of both not just gameplay...is it broken in some area?YES.... but at the same time there is a reason why there is ONline cheese players and the hardcore sim players who dont play like that 2k league just presented.

                  but i have to admit that video was embarrassing, cringy and should not be glorify, like this is what people should do and how the announcer reacts to every basket hyping it up.

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                  • OfficialQbN
                    Rookie
                    • Sep 2015
                    • 163

                    #384
                    Re: Simnation are y'all still around?

                    Originally posted by jfsolo
                    I can't speak to non sports games, but players in competitive e-sports environments will never limit their use of effective(exploitative) tactics unless forced to by the game or some governing or organizing body. They don't care about how bad the game looks or setting a bad example for new players, or growing the league, or anything other than winning games however they can.

                    It may not be right, but all the heavy lifting is really on the development team. Maybe this is too cynical, but I don't think that anyone else on the inside of the process really cares about the how much of a sham the experience is right now. If I was the big cheese, I would have cancelled the whole league for the year after that mockery of game with the 84 points coming off of the 5 Out Iso nonsense.

                    1) Speaking from my experience of playing as a "pro" in 7+ different games (Unreal Tournament, World in Conflict, & COD 4 MW) I can honestly say that it definitely varies from genre & era played. Each game I played had game breaking exploits in some form or another.

                    The tournaments and events I played in were during the infant years of pro gaming so netting $50k or below was considered a high cash prize and the communities were smaller and everyone knew each other so their were GA's (Gentleman's Agreement) by teams on what was and wasn't allowed in tournament play.

                    2) Regarding heavy lifting by the dev team, I never denied that it's mainly their responsibility to provide a healthy environment and I believe DaCzar already stated they working towards that.

                    My point is that you cannot expect ANY game developer to just magically eradicate serious game breaking exploits in a less than 5 month dev cycle. Take 2 puts out a new NBA title every year. They have to split their dev time between the current AND the upcoming title.

                    That's why DaCzar said they would need proposed game-play change ideas by November / December because they can't put the all the dev team's time on the current game otherwise they'd miss their release window for the next NBA2K title.

                    3) I think canceling the league for a year is an impossibility because of the money the NBA, Take 2, and other parties have invested in the NBA2K League.

                    The issue is letting it get to the point where it's so noticeable. The NBA2K League frankly needs to do a better job in curtailing exploits while the dev team for NBA2K works in the background to alleviate them.
                    Find me on YouTube/Twitch/Twitter/ QuickButNeat

                    Member Of OS Since 2013 (Formerly QB1N)

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                    • OfficialQbN
                      Rookie
                      • Sep 2015
                      • 163

                      #385
                      Re: Simnation are y'all still around?

                      Originally posted by WTF
                      I hadn't actually seen that before. I was thinking of having a full on slider, whereas that attribute could do the trick. I'll try to play around with it a bit. If it's lowering all players by 10, or 5, or whatever... if it will yield a more realistic looking result, without breaking something else, that may be my fix. Thanks for that.

                      Thanks for chiming in Czar. As always, your participation in the community is definitely appreciated.

                      I think seeing the game from the inside on a limited scope w/ the GC program, sitting with the devs, etc was able to provide some insight into their specific practices, schedules, workloads, etc. When I think of 2k, I think of a giant conglomerate that is such an oiled machine, sometimes my expectations get too large and unrealistic. i know you guys have the ability, and the people in place to do things, but the ability to fix them all in one rotation, my bad, haha. You all have done some fantastic things, which I guess leads us all to expect greatness each and every year. So I guess, in a way, that's a major compliment to you all, lol.

                      Agree 100%. I have seen nothing but positive changes since Take 2 took our man Czar into the fold.



                      Well 2K is a giant conglomerate to be fair lol... GTA, Civilization, Borderlands, NBA2K, Bioshock, the list goes on... I think it's because 2K is a giant conglomerate that people assume that this somehow extends to the "2K Sports" dev team. That is why people cite how much money 2K makes selling games.

                      Regarding their ability to fix it all in one rotation that is precisely the point I had to make in my earlier post... I don't think people realize how difficult it is to make these kind of changes in such a short dev cycle unless they see it firsthand, are testers, or have coding experience...
                      Find me on YouTube/Twitch/Twitter/ QuickButNeat

                      Member Of OS Since 2013 (Formerly QB1N)

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                      • vannwolfhawk
                        MVP
                        • Jun 2009
                        • 3412

                        #386
                        Re: Simnation are y'all still around?

                        Originally posted by JoFri
                        I saw a "reaction time" attribute under defense. Is this not meant to be? I always play around with this attribute when I find my centers are a step slow in shot blocking or help on defense.

                        an intelligent defender does not easily bite on a pump fake irl. So I was really impressed with Javale's patience in the paint as he timed his jump very well. Now translating this to the player's attribute, we can consider an intelligent defender = high defense iq + high reaction time in HOF slider, and mid defense iq + mid reaction time in SS slider. So with a low defense iq + quick reaction time, we can expect the cpu defender to bite on 90% of the time on pump fakes and high defense iq + low reaction time will bite 5% of the pump fakes. The logic that alter the success of the shot will depend on the shot contest slider (whether jump or hands up affects the makes). So if I happen to shoot and the defender happens to jump to contest, the success rate will be lower.

                        Does it make sense?




                        Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
                        Nice find! I thought this was taken out as it isn’t in the quick edit area for player attributes?! Hmm... hopefully this gets put back in for an easy global edit as going in to each player to edit that 1 rating would be tedious. I’m going to test this.

                        I will say though some of the issues we have can be solved through ratings or tendency edits. For example: just putting block and shot contest tendencies higher will net you a few CPU players falling for pump fakes. It’s fixable without needing 2k to reinvent the wheel.

                        As for what czar said with the Eleague that’s a great thing for us! I never really thought about it from that perspective. Having some of the issues on a global or national scale is good for us as they will want to fix those glaring issues ASAP. Hopefully the competitive fixes they make benefit the sim community as well though. Like I said earlier, that league does not do 2k justice. Having a 1 person per city league that co exists would imo put 2k in a way better light with how deep the game truly is through plays, execution, strategy, and making adjustments. Either way though it’s good for us all. They are on a big stage and those guys will take advantage of any exploit they can. So, If it helps us get rid of those things sooner rather then later all the better...
                        Basketball Playbooks
                        http://www.nextplayhoops.com

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                        • turty11
                          All Star
                          • Apr 2013
                          • 8923

                          #387
                          Re: Simnation are y'all still around?

                          on the note of pump fakes..please tell me that stupid half spin rondo/kobe hybrid "up fake/up and under" animation that every player uses is gone..its atrocious to look at and ruins the paint game.
                          NBA 2k19 Roster and Draft project for PS4

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                          • 23
                            yellow
                            • Sep 2002
                            • 66469

                            #388
                            Re: Simnation are y'all still around?

                            I hate how every conversation turns into some online complaint


                            I completely hate what this game has fostered over these years on that side.


                            Sent from my LG-LS998 using Tapatalk

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                            • jfsolo
                              Live Action, please?
                              • May 2003
                              • 12965

                              #389
                              Re: Simnation are y'all still around?

                              Originally posted by 23
                              I hate how every conversation turns into some online complaint


                              I completely hate what this game has fostered over these years on that side.


                              Sent from my LG-LS998 using Tapatalk
                              It has to turn that way unfortunately, because sim gameplay suffers every year because of the default settings that are a result of tuning for online H2H balance.
                              Jordan Mychal Lemos
                              @crypticjordan

                              Do this today: Instead of $%*#!@& on a game you're not going to play or movie you're not going to watch, say something good about a piece of media you're excited about.

                              Do the same thing tomorrow. And the next. Now do it forever.

                              Comment

                              • 23
                                yellow
                                • Sep 2002
                                • 66469

                                #390
                                Re: Simnation are y'all still around?

                                Originally posted by jfsolo
                                It has to turn that way unfortunately, because sim gameplay suffers every year because of the default settings that are a result of tuning for online H2H balance.
                                Should be the other way around.

                                That's the point. Online players wont ever stop complaining and that's what the people in charge don't get.

                                It's a cheese breeding ground full of selfish attention seekers that unfortunately don't love the NBA as much as they put off.

                                Sent from my LG-LS998 using Tapatalk
                                Last edited by 23; 07-31-2018, 04:17 PM.

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