Player Movement - Lets have a serious discussion

[ch46647]

Re: Player Movement - Lets have a serious discussion

Thanks, I appreciate it. I'll post them over there shortly.

I have defensive rebounding at 70 and offensive rebounding at 30, as once again the offensive rebounding is overpowering. This makes the offensive rebound numbers more realistic, and causes less WTF moments where the CPU grabs like 3 or 4 offensive rebounds on a single play.

Get out on the fastbreak during 5 on 5 action, and make moves on catch and go's. You will notice more realistic pace, less speed breaks, and overall just a better feel and gameplay experience.

Should i change all of the min/max speed sliders to 75 (max) and 50 (min)?

Or just speed with ball and acceleration with ball

Thanks!

[RetroDee4Three]

Re: Player Movement - Lets have a serious discussion

Should i change all of the min/max speed sliders to 75 (max) and 50 (min)?

Or just speed with ball and acceleration with ball

Thanks!

All of them.

No problem.

[MrWrestling3]

Re: Player Movement - Lets have a serious discussion

Tried it out a bit and player movement feels good, some thoughts for taking it even further, if anyone wants to experiment:

-Can we tweak the Lateral Quickness slider to get rid of the moving through mud feeling on defense?

-Can we tweak the play passing lane/go for on ball steal tendency to bring steals down to a more realistic level, as well as eliminate some of the excessive reaching by the CPU?

-Can we tweak the Contest Shot tendency to get CPU teammates to actually put their hands up instead of getting shot over all the time?

[olajuwon34]

Re: Player Movement - Lets have a serious discussion

It does look a bit more realistic in certain ways, Davis at one point though was seriously flying bringing the ball down the court.

[RetroDee4Three]

Re: Player Movement - Lets have a serious discussion

It does look a bit more realistic in certain ways, Davis at one point though was seriously flying bringing the ball down the court.

I understand that concern, but these are some of the best athletes in the world. Davis IS fast going up and down the floor, he should be able to book it, even with the dribble.



Davis Robinson used to do the same thing.


<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/l8REZ97TOLI" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>


<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/_s2hIf-b6ho" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>




The thing is, even with the dribble these guys are fast up and down the floor. They have long strides, can dribble, and have speed. That's why the pace in these sliders is so important, because we want it to emulate the real speed/acceleration of some of the best athletes in the world.

Also note: The Pelicans gameplay video I displayed was before I lowered speed with ball a bit. I had it at an 80-60 split, and lowered it to 75-50. Davis can run the floor with the best of them in real life, he should be fast moving up and down the floor.

[RetroDee4Three]

Re: Player Movement - Lets have a serious discussion

Tried it out a bit and player movement feels good, some thoughts for taking it even further, if anyone wants to experiment:

-Can we tweak the Lateral Quickness slider to get rid of the moving through mud feeling on defense?

-Can we tweak the play passing lane/go for on ball steal tendency to bring steals down to a more realistic level, as well as eliminate some of the excessive reaching by the CPU?

-Can we tweak the Contest Shot tendency to get CPU teammates to actually put their hands up instead of getting shot over all the time?

Let me see what I can do.


My biggest concern with NBA 2K19 was the player movement. That was the goal of these sliders, and I am really happy with the results. The game didn't feel good to me at all with the default sliders (No matter which difficulty you played on).



I'll mess with things and report back. Thanks for the suggestions

[antdoggydogg]

Re: Player Movement - Lets have a serious discussion

The stutter-skating is definitely noticeable during gameplay, not just replay. I think player movement should follow a more strict set of rules which only allows them to move as far as their footsteps dictate. Sometimes it seems like players are just following a predetermined path and arriving to their location at a predetermined speed, with no regard to their footwork. They warp to the spot almost.

Here is an example that just happened to me. This was a wide open 3-point opportunity that closed because of an unnatural slide by Curry:

https://1drv.ms/v/s!AuhXaSR4D1_QiROisbpLXwxisrzB

[Fredette]

Re: Player Movement - Lets have a serious discussion

"Invisible walls around player" <--- Oh yes and i really hate it that i get stuck with my player and for one or two seconds can't move him, it looks so awkward and CPU gets advantage because of this.

Hopefully they will patch it or must we wait until NBA2K20?

[RetroDee4Three]

Re: Player Movement - Lets have a serious discussion

The stutter-skating is definitely noticeable during gameplay, not just replay. I think player movement should follow a more strict set of rules which only allows them to move as far as their footsteps dictate. Sometimes it seems like players are just following a predetermined path and arriving to their location at a predetermined speed, with no regard to their footwork. They warp to the spot almost.

Here is an example that just happened to me. This was a wide open 3-point opportunity that closed because of an unnatural slide by Curry:

https://1drv.ms/v/s!AuhXaSR4D1_QiROisbpLXwxisrzB

Absolutely, the game is forcing you into directions a lot. Examples include : being sucked into defenders, forcing you into a layup animation when you are trying to pull up (even if it's like 18 ft out) etc. Combine that with the look and feel of the skating, the action can get ugly and the control can feel lost.

I feel you pain on that Curry situation. For those who said that clipping or sliding (2K had to choose, so they went with sliding) that's not true at all, and I say that with all due respect. The clipping is just as bad in this game as it was in 2K17 and 2K18, I took screenshots of players literally going THROUGH other players, arms going through bodies, heads going through bodies, a lot of clipping in this game.

The new motion system with 2K18 started the skating/floating issues. Intances occurred in other 2Ks, but it wasn't on every play and throughout the game. I think that some foot planting would go a long way in helping the visual appeal, but most important the control we have over the on court action.

My sliders do really well to fix things like speed breaks, acceleration issues, poor pass speeds, and just the overall slow pace that the game is out of the box. But, the skating/sliding/floating issues are part of the game engine, we can't do anything about those, sliders can't and won't be able to fix those problems.

I'm actually enjoying the game a bit now that it has some life, but the skating issue is still seen a lot.

[RetroDee4Three]

Re: Player Movement - Lets have a serious discussion

"Invisible walls around player" <--- Oh yes and i really hate it that i get stuck with my player and for one or two seconds can't move him, it looks so awkward and CPU gets advantage because of this.

Hopefully they will patch it or must we wait until NBA2K20?

I don't know, I'm not sure they can. Lowering body up sensitivity to 0 can curve it a bit, but it doesn't get rid of it completely.

[HeavenlyTouch]

Re: Player Movement - Lets have a serious discussion

The sliding issue has figuratively taken me out of being a 2k fan for the past few years. There are certain animations that just absolutely plague this game, where you know no matter what you do in that instance it's going to lead to the same outcome because its inescapable. They have issues with foot planting with this engine and it feels like they can't overcome it at this point, the game feels like a major roster update to me with overall presentation hauls that make it feel shiny and new but underneath the hood it's still the same persisting problem year in and year out.

The fact that you can't properly play defense in a basketball game is really an alarming issue, you have to bump the opposing player into an animation to force them out of something. Otherwise you're sliding all over the place and they can pretty much do as they want even with non-superstars you barely have a chance to defend on-ball. This didn't used to be a problem in games like 2k11, and it just became worse and worse over time as they introduced more animations into the game.

I highly suggest for anyone here who is tired of this to check out some of the Live gameplay vids.. the foot planting and collision system is just so far ahead of 2k at this point that I think it's a game changer (or game breaker as far as 2k is concerned). Ultimately I'm just tired of my players running full speed down court at an arcade pace and sliding all over the place.

The "weighted" feel of the players in 2k is extremely sluggish, instead of a proper pivoting and planting system where you can move accordingly with the controls, it becomes a 'counter balance' game where if you go too far one way you have to reset yourself again and move back out sluggishly only to start it all over again (especially if you get bump animations that force your player to awkwardly slide into areas).

I said this in the simnation thread, but this is an appropriate place to put this:

"Wasn't sure where to post this, so I guess I'll do it here. I don't want to make this a Live vs 2k debate, I'm trying to assess both games objectively before making a purchase.

This is the first time since 2005 that I haven't bought or played a 2k title (I skipped a few years here and there but I tend to buy it almost every other year. 2k8 and 2k11 to this day are the best pure sim games I've ever played, but I really worry about the state of this game.

2k18 to me was just a major downfall for the franchise in terms of offline AI play (online is just completely plagued by horrible servers to the point that it's unplayable here in Asia).

It's a turbo arcade fest, you have to force yourself to play sim just to play sim, and that's not a good thing.

A lot of times I notice 2k games out of the box are very solid/play absolutely fantastic simulation on both ends, and all of a sudden a patch comes out a few days later and guys are running a hundred miles per hour, scoring a billion threes, can stop on a dime and pop a three after going full turbo speed down court, and your players all just jet down wings while the AI on your team runs routes horribly. You have to force yourself to enjoy playing defense, it seems like more of a chore because it's impossible to stop even an above average offensive player, and the only way to do so is to trigger the drawn out bump animations - which isn't a sign of a good foot planting and lateral movement system (watch Live's defense this year, it's super on point, and even when you get bumped you can still work through the contact and keep going and it doesn't seem like a drawn out animation based on observation, but likewise it's a battle - you can simply cut off the drive and force them to pick up their dribble). Driving in consists of way too much over-help and congestion inside, it doesn't feel like true court spacing - and this dates back to the last few titles post 2k11, it's rather a bi-product of poor AI congestion which opens up the threes.

I'm lurking in the shadows watching gameplay of both Live user vs AI play and likewise for 2k, and I'm extremely impressed with Live right now.. I've never been able to say that before because the game looked like absolute janky floaty noodle-arm flailing garbage the last few years, but this is different.

The court spacing in Live looks awesome, there is way more proper defense and foot planting technology, the triple threat looks really realistic, especially exploding from a stand-still position..

I'm going through threads here just trying to convince myself that 2k has improved in some ways, but I'm watching the gameplay vids and such and it's still just a hundred miles an hour down court arcade-fest, and unfortunately I can't bring myself to see this game the way I did in 2k11..

I would love to hear some of your thoughts (objectively) about why this game has improved since then.. as I'm sitting here trying to determine which title I'm going to purchase - and I'm having a hard time with what I'm seeing with 2k this year - it looks like at this point they can't overcome certain engine limitations (it looks exactly the same as the past few years - which is not good imo), and Live is ahead for me right now gameplay wise - their ceiling is higher because of their frostbite engine (I only really care about league/franchise mode). I understand Live's features are behind, but I care far more about the simulation/gameplay experience.. I want something that closely mimics the NBA."

[opius]

Re: Player Movement - Lets have a serious discussion

It is too slidey for my liking. It stood out to me most of all when doing a drill in MyPlayer where you had to shoot contested 3's. I would run and release the stick but still slide far past the spot I needed to shoot from. This needs to be tightened up.

[DonWuan]

Re: Player Movement - Lets have a serious discussion

Momentum stuff I can deal with even though its over exaggerated. Sliding around the rim is frustrating because its a auto bucket. Cpu can make micro moves around the rim and if you guess wrong youre completely out of the play.

[NoleFan]

Re: Player Movement - Lets have a serious discussion

Haven’t finished a full game yet but I’m digging the 75 (max)/50 (min) movement sliders.


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[RetroDee4Three]

Re: Player Movement - Lets have a serious discussion

The sliding issue has figuratively taken me out of being a 2k fan for the past few years. There are certain animations that just absolutely plague this game, where you know no matter what you do in that instance it's going to lead to the same outcome because its inescapable. They have issues with foot planting with this engine and it feels like they can't overcome it at this point, the game feels like a major roster update to me with overall presentation hauls that make it feel shiny and new but underneath the hood it's still the same persisting problem year in and year out.

The fact that you can't properly play defense in a basketball game is really an alarming issue, you have to bump the opposing player into an animation to force them out of something. Otherwise you're sliding all over the place and they can pretty much do as they want even with non-superstars you barely have a chance to defend on-ball. This didn't used to be a problem in games like 2k11, and it just became worse and worse over time as they introduced more animations into the game.

I highly suggest for anyone here who is tired of this to check out some of the Live gameplay vids.. the foot planting and collision system is just so far ahead of 2k at this point that I think it's a game changer (or game breaker as far as 2k is concerned). Ultimately I'm just tired of my players running full speed down court at an arcade pace and sliding all over the place.

The "weighted" feel of the players in 2k is extremely sluggish, instead of a proper pivoting and planting system where you can move accordingly with the controls, it becomes a 'counter balance' game where if you go too far one way you have to reset yourself again and move back out sluggishly only to start it all over again (especially if you get bump animations that force your player to awkwardly slide into areas).

I said this in the simnation thread, but this is an appropriate place to put this:

"Wasn't sure where to post this, so I guess I'll do it here. I don't want to make this a Live vs 2k debate, I'm trying to assess both games objectively before making a purchase.

This is the first time since 2005 that I haven't bought or played a 2k title (I skipped a few years here and there but I tend to buy it almost every other year. 2k8 and 2k11 to this day are the best pure sim games I've ever played, but I really worry about the state of this game.

2k18 to me was just a major downfall for the franchise in terms of offline AI play (online is just completely plagued by horrible servers to the point that it's unplayable here in Asia).

It's a turbo arcade fest, you have to force yourself to play sim just to play sim, and that's not a good thing.

A lot of times I notice 2k games out of the box are very solid/play absolutely fantastic simulation on both ends, and all of a sudden a patch comes out a few days later and guys are running a hundred miles per hour, scoring a billion threes, can stop on a dime and pop a three after going full turbo speed down court, and your players all just jet down wings while the AI on your team runs routes horribly. You have to force yourself to enjoy playing defense, it seems like more of a chore because it's impossible to stop even an above average offensive player, and the only way to do so is to trigger the drawn out bump animations - which isn't a sign of a good foot planting and lateral movement system (watch Live's defense this year, it's super on point, and even when you get bumped you can still work through the contact and keep going and it doesn't seem like a drawn out animation based on observation, but likewise it's a battle - you can simply cut off the drive and force them to pick up their dribble). Driving in consists of way too much over-help and congestion inside, it doesn't feel like true court spacing - and this dates back to the last few titles post 2k11, it's rather a bi-product of poor AI congestion which opens up the threes.

I'm lurking in the shadows watching gameplay of both Live user vs AI play and likewise for 2k, and I'm extremely impressed with Live right now.. I've never been able to say that before because the game looked like absolute janky floaty noodle-arm flailing garbage the last few years, but this is different.

The court spacing in Live looks awesome, there is way more proper defense and foot planting technology, the triple threat looks really realistic, especially exploding from a stand-still position..

I'm going through threads here just trying to convince myself that 2k has improved in some ways, but I'm watching the gameplay vids and such and it's still just a hundred miles an hour down court arcade-fest, and unfortunately I can't bring myself to see this game the way I did in 2k11..

I would love to hear some of your thoughts (objectively) about why this game has improved since then.. as I'm sitting here trying to determine which title I'm going to purchase - and I'm having a hard time with what I'm seeing with 2k this year - it looks like at this point they can't overcome certain engine limitations (it looks exactly the same as the past few years - which is not good imo), and Live is ahead for me right now gameplay wise - their ceiling is higher because of their frostbite engine (I only really care about league/franchise mode). I understand Live's features are behind, but I care far more about the simulation/gameplay experience.. I want something that closely mimics the NBA."

Agreed on 2K18, it was the biggest let down I have had in sports gaming, especially since 2K17 (Pre January 2017 patch) was one of the better 2K's I had played. Granted, the game still had issues (SG/SF moving out of bounds when the ball was brought up, Pick n Roll exploit, brick wall defense). But overall, the foot planting was sound, the game was reactive, and the pace was solid and fun. When 2K18 came out, it introduced the new motion system which including a lot of strange animations going towards the hoop, skating all over the floor, and the infamous blow by issue (And terrible defense all around). It also introduced worse atmosphere, where the arenas were much darker than real life counterparts, and the courts had no life. I spent thousands of hours on 2K17, and I couldn't play 2K18 for 5 minutes without wanting to chuck the controller.


Just a slight correction (I have side by side videos to prove this), the skating was introduced as a COMMON occurrence in 2K18 (After being out of the series since 2K10). In past titles, you would get instances, but it wasn't all the time. It hasn't been a few years with the skating, it's been since the new motion system (So the last 2 games).


The court spacing in Live 19 is awesome, and I post videos of both titles on my YT. I prefer the gameplay overall on Live, where they fall extremely short is depth. Can't use classic players offline, franchise mode is bare bones, customizations is limited. So for those who want to have variety, and don't want to just run with current teams, it's a big let down. Check out my YT channel and you will see my Live videos, I have a blast with the game overall. However, they are targeting the younger demographic (Per the dev team), and this is troubling, as targeting teenagers can work a bit while they are still teenagers, but what happens when they grow out of the "Street" phase, they won't give Live a look.


2K19 has improved over 2K18 in quite a few areas. Mostly, defense. The blow by exploit made it so you could run by anybody, with anybody, whenever you wants. You didn't even need to pull off moves, just push forward ont he joystick (Which is how the dude in the 2k sports league scored like 70 of his 84 points). The help defense and transition defense was also a disaster, and none of this could be fixed with sliders. THIS could be done on HOF with ease (The NBAtv scoreboard was a mod).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytwn0kBkpkU&t=12s

So already, I am playing 2K19 more, because they curved the blow by issues, and defense issues, so you actually have to use basketball strategy to score. I am the epitome of an unbiased party, as I want the best for both gaming companies (EA and 2K), I want both of them to flourish and create great basketball games, because they will both make eachother better. Also with 2K19, the lighting has improved slightly, and the graphics overall on close-ups are unreal, they exceed the graphics of 2K18.


But again, the biggest reason is the defense/blow by fix, as this year you don't have to "fake sim" to enjoy the game.


In regards to you lurking, A lot more people are doing that this year. Best advice I can give is: If you have a console, download the demo of Live and the Prelude on 2K in order to get a feel for the gameplay, and if you have a buddy who owns 2K19, play it at his place first (I recommend my sliders in order for you to have a better feel/experience). But if you care about depth offline, and want classic players, more customization, a deep franchise, etc... AND you find that you enjoy the gameplay on 2K (Gives you more joy than frustration), I would go with 2K.


Live does some things better. Namely: Foot planting, pace/flow, players move off the ball better, shots on the move are slightly better (Which I can't believe after Live 18). RPM did Live wonders, and I really like the game. However, it still suffers from a clunky post game (Where some of the robotic Live 18 animations are still present), and you don't feel like you have full control in the post because of it, it suffers still from rocket animations at times, it doesn't have camera relative controls (Which is a huge surprise), and the players lack explosion at times (John Wall can feel a bit too much like Raymond Felton).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xg6NPHWORBk

I own both, play both, upload videos of both. But what will have me playing 2K19 more is the depth, and Im on PC so I can mod the hell out of it.