#StealSpam has changed the 2K Meta

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  • BigDaneAyMane
    Rookie
    • Jun 2010
    • 128

    #121
    Re: #StealSpam has changed the 2K Meta

    Originally posted by Hardaway1
    as a guard with gold ankle breaker I shouldn't have to hold LT religiously when a pure stretch runs up spamming x.

    I play patiently and just last night had a pure stretch who would constantly run up and steal spam before I passed half court..my complaint is that he was essentially a magnet that would suck me into his body and basically paralyzed my player for a second leaving me unable to attempt a pass. This was happening at least 50% of the time and I was lucky that he didn't get more steals than he did. Even when I'd have a step or two on him he would lunge forward with the steal button and it would leave me unable to move for a split second because hitting X put him in great position to body me up which is just wild since I"m a fast point guard and he's a pure stretch

    Thankfully they had no defensive rotation so I could just throw it up to our uncovered big, but a smarter team could have taken that away and brought a double once I get "sucked in" leaving me helpless to having the second defender deflect the ball with his knee which has and does happen on multiple occasions.

    I've had many possessions where I'm cautiously walking the ball up, protecting it when I need to just to have a big run up from BEHIND ME, hit x and the ball gets deflected.. where is the skill in that?

    And like I've said in other threads, I'm all for adjusting and I'm all for making certain passes more difficult (passes in the paint to your big when the opposing big is standing right in front of him which used to get through 90% of the time, for example) but I shouldn't have to bring the ball up every time with the cautiousness a 5th grader practising against the varsity squad.

    If Chris Paul is bringing the ball up with no pressure and Ryan Anderson comes sprinting full speed flailing his arms around it's not going to be a concern to Cp3, so why is it something that I have to constantly worry about in 2k?

    And if there is going to be such a small room for error when it comes to passing/dribbling then why isn't it the same for shooting? If you have to play like you're walking a tight rope when dribbling the ball why is the game so open and carefree for shooters who want to take contested, off balanced shots at all times?
    I would have to see gameplay to see the exact scenario you're talking about and see if you could have exploited the situation. All I can speak from is my experience. When someone is pressuring me before passing half court with a player who has no business pressuring my dribbler, I try to remain calm, use the full 8 seconds, use the entire court, sideline to sideline as opposed to always trying to move forward and then make them pay by getting the ball to the open man or using different speeds with my dribbler to immediately get an uncontested mid-range for reaching.

    Comment

    • Kushmir
      MVP
      • Jun 2003
      • 2414

      #122
      Re: #StealSpam has changed the 2K Meta

      Originally posted by BigDaneAyMane
      Protect ball should immediately be used after almost every single rebound and change of possession. Takes time getting used to, but changes how you handle the spammers drastically.

      Also, your example where you're saying LT didn't work is a bad one. Yeah, you're protecting the ball, but you're protecting it to the side where the defender has a direct line to the ball. You should have been protecting to the opposite side, getting there with a quick crossover.
      Protect Ball should be used after every rebound? lol...I can't even respond to that its so ridiculous. You can't be serious with that.

      This is the Protect Ball you're talking about? Where I do exactly what you're describing except for the split second where i'm about to throw a pass? Where he misses his first steal with no downside only to keep spamming? Ummmm....

      <iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/r-_itAgqa78" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>

      ONE of the many problems with your claim is that good design/balance demands the same set of skill from each user.

      You're saying to be successful we need to: Press L2 in mid-air, and switch hands with protect ball making sure its not to the defender's side, while calling plays...but all the other user needs to do is spam square? Meanwhile he gets the leeway to miss with no downside, while any split-second mistakes by me yield consequences? Hmmm.....let me think about that for a second.

      Ok...I thought about it. Yeaaaaaaaaah your expectation is silly. SORRY, I don't think I want any parts of a system like that.
      NOTE: Any and ALL of my suggestions are specifically and only related to Play Now Online.

      Comment

      • BigDaneAyMane
        Rookie
        • Jun 2010
        • 128

        #123
        Re: #StealSpam has changed the 2K Meta

        Originally posted by Kushmir
        Protect Ball should be used after every rebound? lol...I can't even respond to that its so ridiculous. You can't be serious with that.

        This is the Protect Ball you're talking about? Where I do exactly what you're describing except for the split second where i'm about to throw a pass? Where he misses his first steal with no downside only to keep spamming? Ummmm....

        <iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/r-_itAgqa78" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>

        ONE of the many problems with your claim is that good design/balance demands the same set of skill from each user.

        You're saying to be successful we need to: Press L2 in mid-air, and switch hands with protect ball making sure its not to the defender's side, while calling plays...but all the other user needs to do is spam square? Meanwhile he gets the leeway to miss with no downside, while any split-second mistakes by me yield consequences? Hmmm.....let me think about that for a second.

        Ok...I thought about it. Yeaaaaaaaaah your expectation is silly. SORRY, I don't think I want any parts of a system like that.
        What is so ridiculous about having to protect the ball after a rebound? I played center in AAU ball some (too long) time ago and if I got a rebound and left the ball exposed, I was getting ripped. Again, I agree that there are too many situations where in a split second after a change of possession a spammer is rewarded, but I just don't feel people are careful with the ball enough to justify many of their complaints.

        That first sequence you are showing, you're up against a lockdown in takeover and you have the whole right side open for him over-committing. You forced running the play when running the play is not there.

        The second one is a little bit more questionable, but it looks like the same thing. He's overcommitting left, take two steps forward right, step left and then make the pass.

        I guess my concern is that they tone it back down too much like it was in 2k18, where on ball steals were virutually impossible unless you were a lockdown or running into a defender and just having the ball come out. This was one of the reasons five out and blowbys were so effective last year ruining gameplay.

        Yes, steals are OP and should be toned down a bit, but there are some major consequences to gameplay if they tone it back down too far and I firmly believe the community should do a better job at protecting the ball and making cheesers pay instead of just saying things are broken. Even if many of the Czar vids I've watched, he has stressed the importance of protect ball this year.

        It's tough to explain and I know I'm in the minority on this one. I should probably start uploading gameplay examples to show what I mean by making spammers pay because I can assure there are ways to.

        Comment

        • ASAP Floppy
          Banned
          • Sep 2018
          • 177

          #124
          Re: #StealSpam has changed the 2K Meta

          Originally posted by BigDaneAyMane
          What is so ridiculous about having to protect the ball after a rebound?.
          Because it's impossible to do in 2k when you're stripped so fast the camera hasn't even fully flipped before the ball is gone. In pro-am against good teams your big is going to get stripped multiple times before he has a chance to pass, while protecting the ball and before he can even move to protect, and it's not just lockdowns.

          Comment

          • BigDaneAyMane
            Rookie
            • Jun 2010
            • 128

            #125
            Re: #StealSpam has changed the 2K Meta

            Originally posted by ASAP Floppy
            Because it's impossible to do in 2k when you're stripped so fast the camera hasn't even fully flipped before the ball is gone. In pro-am against good teams your big is going to get stripped multiple times before he has a chance to pass, while protecting the ball and before he can even move to protect, and it's not just lockdowns.
            This is the biggest problem with steal spamming to me and needs to be addressed, but I have found using protect ball immediately without moving drastically decreases this. I have a Rebounding/Finishing PF for Pro-Am so I know the struggle ha.

            Comment

            • ASAP Floppy
              Banned
              • Sep 2018
              • 177

              #126
              Re: #StealSpam has changed the 2K Meta

              Originally posted by BigDaneAyMane
              This is the biggest problem with steal spamming to me and needs to be addressed, but I have found using protect ball immediately without moving drastically decreases this. I have a Rebounding/Finishing PF for Pro-Am so I know the struggle ha.
              You'll know struggle when you run into a team with 3 frontcourt players that are all defenders and you come down with the board in the middle of them

              Comment

              • Kushmir
                MVP
                • Jun 2003
                • 2414

                #127
                Re: #StealSpam has changed the 2K Meta

                Originally posted by ASAP Floppy
                Because it's impossible to do in 2k when you're stripped so fast the camera hasn't even fully flipped before the ball is gone. In pro-am against good teams your big is going to get stripped multiple times before he has a chance to pass, while protecting the ball and before he can even move to protect, and it's not just lockdowns.
                Not to mention that due to the screen flip the other user is literally spamming BLIND...the total opposite of skill. Like StrawBerry Shortcake mentioned earlier...make stealing skill based. Down with the R stick to steal a bounce pass, right or left with the R-stick based on where the defender is and R-Stick up for a lob pass....then we'll see who's really good at stealing.

                This happened to my 6ers in Playoff Game 5 vs Boston. I couldn't help but think in game terms it was Cov (a great steal guy-80 rating) surprised by the lob pass and then Horford guessing right on the bounce pass. Requiring this level of detail by the defender opens up the chess game again.

                <div style="width:100%;height:0px;position:relative;pad ding-bottom:56.250%;"><iframe src="https://streamable.com/s/38b3v/rmojsy" frameborder="0" width="100%" height="100%" allowfullscreen style="width:100%;height:100%;position:absolute;le ft:0px;top:0px;overflow:hidden;"></iframe></div>

                Guessing right shouldn't always yield a steal either. Maybe you dont "nail" the timing window but guess right and just get an out of bounds deflection. Anything but the eveyone-is-deion-sanders stuff we have now.
                Last edited by Kushmir; 10-10-2018, 11:33 AM.
                NOTE: Any and ALL of my suggestions are specifically and only related to Play Now Online.

                Comment

                • Hardaway1
                  Rookie
                  • Nov 2007
                  • 48

                  #128
                  Re: #StealSpam has changed the 2K Meta

                  Originally posted by BigDaneAyMane
                  I would have to see gameplay to see the exact scenario you're talking about and see if you could have exploited the situation. All I can speak from is my experience. When someone is pressuring me before passing half court with a player who has no business pressuring my dribbler, I try to remain calm, use the full 8 seconds, use the entire court, sideline to sideline as opposed to always trying to move forward and then make them pay by getting the ball to the open man or using different speeds with my dribbler to immediately get an uncontested mid-range for reaching.
                  I'm not that worried about one individual doing it. Although it is frustrating that they are able to attempt it with almost no consequences.

                  It's once you get passed that one guy and here comes another steal spammer sprinting full speed at you. I get past the first guy with a simple move, I'm not sprinting or running out of control, I've taken the foot off the gas because the next closest defender is about 15ft away from me and I should have time to read and react.. but I don't because as soon as I made the move to get past the big he comes running in spamming x which magically lets him make cover 1/4 of the court in the same amount of time it takes me to move the ball from one hand to the other..

                  It's at that point where this magical, do it all x button will take him to the correct side the ball is on giving him a great chance at a steal even after I've switched hands to the opposite side of where he is running it does't matter because he can reach across my body with no consequences.

                  This should leave me a perfect opportunity to hit his man with a pass that should leave the defense out of position and give us an easy look.. but it doesn't because when he hits X the game decides to go for a steal when I'm dribbling and to put the steal spammers hands up when I'm passing.

                  So he can run at me spamming x knowing that he's going to react properly to a dribble or a pass regardless of what he THINKS I'm going to do just because the game grants so much power to a steal attempt. And I can't bounce pass it around him because leaving it up to the game to decide which teammate that bounce pass was intended for is a death wish, so I have to icon it which throws a pass right into the defenders hands leading to a deflection or a steal.

                  I had a play last night where I'm coming down the court, I've got my teammate running down towards the lane which is completely open except for his man who is two steps ahead of him with back turned to my teammate which who'm he is defending, I see an opportunity to use the defenders momentum against him so I tell my guy to stop running so I can just tag him for an easy mid range

                  My guy stops at the free throw line while his defenders front foot is in the restricted area (with his back still turned to the guy he is supposed to be guarding) easy pass right?His defender is in a full sprint, my teammate is more than an arms reach away from his defender and the defenders back is turned, I've got a gold dimer badge and nobody is in my passing lane...

                  I threw that pass before my teammate even came to a complete stop. with the defender whose back is still turned and with one touch of the x button the defender turns around reaches behind his back and makes a one handed grab that would make OBJ jealous..

                  Hitting the x button should not make up for being completely out of position in that situation. Not only does he make a ridiculous interception, but he also made up about 5ft of space from the moment the ball left me hands.

                  One button should not make up for bad positioning/defense.
                  Last edited by Hardaway1; 10-10-2018, 11:22 AM.

                  Comment

                  • BigDaneAyMane
                    Rookie
                    • Jun 2010
                    • 128

                    #129
                    Re: #StealSpam has changed the 2K Meta

                    Originally posted by Hardaway1
                    I'm not that worried about one individual doing it. Although it is frustrating that they are able to attempt it with almost no consequences.

                    It's once you get passed that one guy and here comes another steal spammer sprinting full speed at you. I get past the first guy with a simple move, I'm not sprinting or running out of control, I've taken the foot off the gas because the next closest defender is about 15ft away from me and I should have time to read and react.. but I don't because as soon as I made the move to get past the big he comes running in spamming x which magically lets him make cover 1/4 of the court in the same amount of time it takes me to move the ball from one hand to the other..

                    It's at that point where this magical, do it all x button will take him to the correct side the ball is on giving him a great chance at a steal even after I've switched hands to the opposite side of where he is running it does't matter because he can reach across my body with no consequences.

                    This should leave me a perfect opportunity to hit his man with a pass that should leave the defense out of position and give us an easy look.. but it doesn't because when he hits X the game decides to go for a steal when I'm dribbling and to put the steal spammers hands up when I'm passing.

                    So he can run at me spamming x knowing that he's going to react properly to a dribble or a pass regardless of what he THINKS I'm going to do just because the game grants so much power to a steal attempt. And I can't bounce pass it around him because leaving it up to the game to decide which teammate that bounce pass was intended for is a death wish, so I have to icon it which throws a pass right into the defenders hands leading to a deflection or a steal.

                    I had a play last night where I'm coming down the court, I've got my teammate running down towards the lane which is completely open except for his man who is two steps ahead of him with back turned to my teammate which who'm he is defending, I see an opportunity to use the defenders momentum against him so I tell my guy to stop running so I can just tag him for an easy mid range

                    My guy stops at the free throw line while his defenders front foot is in the restricted area (with his back still turned to the guy he is supposed to be guarding) easy pass right?His defender is in a full sprint, my teammate is more than an arms reach away from his defender and the defenders back is turned, I've got a gold dimer badge and nobody is in my passing lane...

                    I threw that pass before my teammate even came to a complete stop. with the defender whose back is still turned and with one touch of the x button the defender turns around reaches behind his back and makes a one handed grab that would make OBJ jealous..

                    Hitting the x button should not make up for being completely out of position in that situation. Not only does he make a ridiculous interception, but he also made up about 5ft of space from the moment the ball left me hands.

                    One button should not make up for bad positioning/defense.
                    It seems pretty clear that steals should have more of an effect on stamina to balance out spamming.

                    I guess my overall point is that I have been enjoying 1v1 online gameplay way more than I ever did in 18 and it's because I feel, while still annoying, there is a solution to defeating some of the more cheesy elements like spamming steal. I feel I'm at an advantage with some of these players playing a more sim style because they literally don't know what to do as soon as it doesn't work on me the same way it does on some other players. I recognize it's a problem though.

                    In 18, it felt like there was absolutely no solution to defeating blowbys and five-outs unless you cheesed back.

                    Comment

                    • mb625
                      DJ2K
                      • Jan 2012
                      • 5016

                      #130
                      Re: #StealSpam has changed the 2K Meta

                      Originally posted by Dedicated2389
                      In previous years I was begging for a on-ball steal after 15 seconds of guarding a "dribble god", or I was pissed because users were able to make CRAZY passes through the body or arms and all that is gone this year.
                      Right, but that hasn't been replaced with an actual skill gap... in the game's present state, it's five guys standing in front of their man and hitting square repeatedly just in case it gets passed to them. The skill in stealing passes is anticipation and that anticipation is non-existent right now. This is less anticipation and more just hitting the button repeatedly just in case you are right. All this because there is rarely a negative outcome for it. Poor timing and anticipation should not go unpunished and it is too often.

                      To further my point by way of examples: last night I was playing in the rec and such. I was guarding my man, a stretch big, trying to stay in front of him as he moved around the perimeter. I was in between him and the ball as the guard was passing to him. I caught the ball. I didn't press square and I wasn't anticipating the pass. But I got the steal anyway. That shouldn't be a bad pass for him. He should be buzzing it past me, not throwing it to me. Secondly, I tried to steal a down court pass. I didn't get there in time and I missed the pass... but the guy turned around and started to dribble and I got the rip... again, shouldn't happen. I should not have been able to transition from lunging for pass to lunging for on ball steal that seamlessly. I should have either totally missed or committed a foul. Neutral outcomes are an issue. It changes skill gap into "hit the button til it works" and that is an issue

                      Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
                      Last edited by mb625; 10-10-2018, 12:45 PM.
                      MLB: Minnesota Twins
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                      Twitter: @mbless625

                      Comment

                      • Kushmir
                        MVP
                        • Jun 2003
                        • 2414

                        #131
                        Re: #StealSpam has changed the 2K Meta

                        Originally posted by mb625
                        Right, but that hasn't been replaced with an actual skill gap... in the game's present state, it's five guys standing in front of their man and hitting square repeatedly just in case it gets passed to them. The skill in stealing passes is anticipation and that anticipation is non-existent right now. This is less anticipation and more just hitting the button repeatedly just in case you are right. All this because there is rarely a negative outcome for it. Poor timing and anticipation should not go unpunished and it is too often.
                        THIS. "Not as bad as the hip-riding animation" isnt a thing...its still a horrible balanced mechanic.

                        And these neutral outcomes are the main culprit re: spam. You don't get to miss a steal and keep textbook defensive position--thats horrible design. Its the equivalent of missing a hit-stick in Madden but still pushing the guy out of bounds. NO WAY.

                        <iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/rCrRtKvFjxs" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>
                        Last edited by Kushmir; 10-10-2018, 12:48 PM.
                        NOTE: Any and ALL of my suggestions are specifically and only related to Play Now Online.

                        Comment

                        • Hardaway1
                          Rookie
                          • Nov 2007
                          • 48

                          #132
                          Re: #StealSpam has changed the 2K Meta

                          Originally posted by BigDaneAyMane
                          It seems pretty clear that steals should have more of an effect on stamina to balance out spamming.

                          I guess my overall point is that I have been enjoying 1v1 online gameplay way more than I ever did in 18 and it's because I feel, while still annoying, there is a solution to defeating some of the more cheesy elements like spamming steal. I feel I'm at an advantage with some of these players playing a more sim style because they literally don't know what to do as soon as it doesn't work on me the same way it does on some other players. I recognize it's a problem though.

                          In 18, it felt like there was absolutely no solution to defeating blowbys and five-outs unless you cheesed back.
                          It's okay when there are one or two guys on the opposing team doing it, but some of these five man teams have it down to a science and their entire defensive strategy is to spam x with their bigs on guards and play the passing lanes with their Ed Reed ability to ball hawk.

                          I'm fine with things being tougher, but I can't stand seeing reckless and unrealistic play rewarded on such a consistent basis.

                          Comment

                          • Hardaway1
                            Rookie
                            • Nov 2007
                            • 48

                            #133
                            Re: #StealSpam has changed the 2K Meta

                            Originally posted by mb625
                            Right, but that hasn't been replaced with an actual skill gap... in the game's present state, it's five guys standing in front of their man and hitting square repeatedly just in case it gets passed to them. The skill in stealing passes is anticipation and that anticipation is non-existent right now. This is less anticipation and more just hitting the button repeatedly just in case you are right. All this because there is rarely a negative outcome for it. Poor timing and anticipation should not go unpunished and it is too often.

                            To further my point by way of examples: last night I was playing in the rec and such. I was guarding my man, a stretch big, trying to stay in front of him as he moved around the perimeter. I was in between him and the ball as the guard was passing to him. I caught the ball. I didn't press square and I wasn't anticipating the pass. But I got the steal anyway. That shouldn't be a bad pass for him. He should be buzzing it past me, not throwing it to me. Secondly, I tried to steal a down court pass. I didn't get there in time and I missed the pass... but the guy turned around and started to dribble and I got the rip... again, shouldn't happen. I should not have been able to transition from lunging for pass to lunging for on ball steal that seamlessly. I should have either totally missed or committed a foul. Neutral outcomes are an issue. It changes skill gap into "hit the button til it works" and that is an issue

                            Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
                            This is probably my biggest pet peeve. People are actually getting rewarded for spamming steal by being put in great position regardless of whether they are successful or not.

                            At this point there is no reason not to spam passing lanes with the x button because even if you miss the pass you're going to make up enough ground and be put into great defensive position. So it's a win-win when spamming the steal button.

                            Comment

                            • Rsnake21
                              Rookie
                              • Jan 2016
                              • 128

                              #134
                              Re: #StealSpam has changed the 2K Meta

                              Most of you guys hit the nail on the head. It’s absolutely ridiculous, not real bball, and in my view lessons the skill gap tremendously. It doesn’t promote real b-ball iq or “sim” experience. You can’t run any type of actual offense. This has to change

                              Comment

                              • Thrustie
                                Pro
                                • Sep 2016
                                • 764

                                #135
                                Re: #StealSpam has changed the 2K Meta

                                Originally posted by BigDaneAyMane
                                This is the biggest problem with steal spamming to me and needs to be addressed, but I have found using protect ball immediately without moving drastically decreases this. I have a Rebounding/Finishing PF for Pro-Am so I know the struggle ha.
                                <iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/_N2Btw0dKbk" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>
                                <iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/DPCWn-jlGCQ" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>

                                Twice in the same game. It doesn’t work very consistently at all.

                                Comment

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