Evidence why next gen pick and roll and help defense needs lots of work still

[sperlz_99]

Re: Evidence why next gen pick and roll and help defense needs lots of work still

The little piece of your video I watched u continually just spammed the PNR untill u got the result u wanted.......I think if u search for a way to cheese the game u can do that and always will...... however if u play sim basketball and don’t attempt to cheese then it can be a fairly well played game with slider tweaks........ it’s not perfect but it’s a lot better than it was a couple weeks ago


Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports

Not at all it was an example of how pick and roll doesn't work against quick players. I don't play that way normally but showing for the purpose of the video

[EccentricMeat]

Re: Evidence why next gen pick and roll and help defense needs lots of work still

The movement sliders at default are completely off and make most players with the ball move far too fast, meanwhile the slower players off the ball move in slow-motion. This is the main reason the PnR is so easy to exploit without tweaking the sliders.

Increase the min Speed and Accel sliders for off-ball players and decrease the max Speed and Accel sliders for on-ball players. That coupled with the other tweaks I mentioned (to make help defense actually exist) will fix the problem until 2K fix the logic of the hedge defender.

[ChaseB]

Re: Evidence why next gen pick and roll and help defense needs lots of work still

Yeah the positioning got better with the tweaks, and I do think the AI players want to make the right reads, it's just they can't move laterally well enough while down in the stance right now by default. When you factor in some legacy issues with switching, and sliders is probably where we'll have to make the changes.

Also, to be fair, this is basically what does happen to a defense that starts Huerter, Trae, Gallo and Collins

[goma76]

Re: Evidence why next gen pick and roll and help defense needs lots of work still

Yeah the positioning got better with the tweaks, and I do think the AI players want to make the right reads, it's just they can't move laterally well enough while down in the stance right now by default. When you factor in some legacy issues with switching, and sliders is probably where we'll have to make the changes.

Also, to be fair, this is basically what does happen to a defense that starts Huerter, Trae, Gallo and Collins

Jesus, why they cannot fix the laterally move of the players? Do they use a new motion engine, aren't they?
Why the players moves like paraplegics instead of react like an athlet?
This legacy issue still there and I'm losing my trust of them

[CujoMatty]

Re: Evidence why next gen pick and roll and help defense needs lots of work still

Jesus, why they cannot fix the laterally move of the players? Do they use a new motion engine, aren't they?
Why the players moves like paraplegics instead of react like an athlet?
This legacy issue still there and I'm losing my trust of them

I've also noticed part of the problem is that the big actually will switch but then he instantly goes into the take charge animation and hes pretty easy to go around cause hes basically a pylon. The other outcome is sometimes you get sucked into a charge animation and there has been times that the suction is pretty awful and unrealistic.

[EccentricMeat]

Evidence why next gen pick and roll and help defense needs lots of work still

What I’m seeing is 1 of 3 outcomes: the hedge defender will actually play the pick well and switch, the hedge defender will stand still and watch as you drive or shoot, or the hedge defender will ignore the dribbler and only pay attention to the screener.

Outcomes 1 and 3 are fine, but 2K needs to completely remove the times where the hedge just stands and stares while the play is happening. You can drive right around him and he literally just watches like he’s stuck in place. It doesn’t happen the majority of the time, but it shouldn’t happen at all.

[m29a]

Re: Evidence why next gen pick and roll and help defense needs lots of work still

I agree there are clear improvements to be made, but I think you will always be able to find ways to take advantage of game mechanics. It's probably a tough balance because the defense can't take everything away, and if you beef up help defense and/or drop the big more, that results in increased open perimeter shots (which some people really dislike seeing).

[EccentricMeat]

Re: Evidence why next gen pick and roll and help defense needs lots of work still

I agree there are clear improvements to be made, but I think you will always be able to find ways to take advantage of game mechanics. It's probably a tough balance because the defense can't take everything away, and if you beef up help defense and/or drop the big more, that results in increased open perimeter shots (which some people really dislike seeing).

Which is exactly the kind of thing ACE is supposed to take care of, if it actually worked. The AI should easily be able to make intelligent use of all the defensive settings in the game, so that the hedge can play according to who is running the PnR, and adjust when you’re finding success. The higher the specific defender’s Defensive Awareness is, the more likely they are to play it correctly and the quicker they are at adjusting to the same scenario later in the game.

I shouldn’t be able to run the PnR with Curry and have the big just sag off every time. The AI should know to hard-hedge or switch based on the matchups, and if you’re continuously hitting a jumper then they should start auto-switching and get up in your face immediately. Then you have the chess match of forcing a mismatch, having the screener roll early, etc.

[Quentin32]

Re: Evidence why next gen pick and roll and help defense needs lots of work still

The defense overall is just plain bad. I put every defensive attribute to the max. I put my acceleration to 0 and still got to the rim at will

https://youtu.be/gFFzhgsFIfk

https://youtu.be/tMgaaYNvSgQ

(Before u watch Mute the video. I forgot to mute the mic. Very loud noise in background)

[goma76]

Re: Evidence why next gen pick and roll and help defense needs lots of work still

The defense overall is just plain bad. I put every defensive attribute to the max. I put my acceleration to 0 and still got to the rim at will

https://youtu.be/gFFzhgsFIfk

https://youtu.be/tMgaaYNvSgQ

(Before u watch Mute the video. I forgot to mute the mic. Very loud noise in background)

The issue of the side line driving is 100% identical to the old gen...
Also the lateral sliding animation is the same, isn't natural even with the new (?) motion engine.

I still see a lot of old gen (too much) in this video, really worrying.


People discussing about graphics, accessory forgetting this BIG ISSUE that they are not able to fix in several years.


I hope NBA Live 2022 will be announced soon, it might give them a wake up call

[EccentricMeat]

Re: Evidence why next gen pick and roll and help defense needs lots of work still

The defense overall is just plain bad. I put every defensive attribute to the max. I put my acceleration to 0 and still got to the rim at will

https://youtu.be/gFFzhgsFIfk

https://youtu.be/tMgaaYNvSgQ

(Before u watch Mute the video. I forgot to mute the mic. Very loud noise in background)

Increase CPU Lateral Quickness and Drive Contact Shot Frequency both to 100. Also decrease USER Speed with Ball (Max) to around 60.

The example in the 1st video really can’t be fixed though. That’s a result of the complete removal of off-ball contact animations. Since you drove in the direction of another player, the defender AI has to circle around that player before running at you because there’s an invisible force-field around all off-ball players, unless that player is setting a screen.

So what you did there is actually more affective than calling for a pick, because the AI can’t deal with static players on the perimeter [emoji849]

[Quentin32]

Re: Evidence why next gen pick and roll and help defense needs lots of work still

Increase CPU Lateral Quickness and Drive Contact Shot Frequency both to 100. Also decrease USER Speed with Ball (Max) to around 60.

The example in the 1st video really can’t be fixed though. That’s a result of the complete removal of off-ball contact animations. Since you drove in the direction of another player, the defender AI has to circle around that player before running at you because there’s an invisible force-field around all off-ball players, unless that player is setting a screen.

So what you did there is actually more affective than calling for a pick, because the AI can’t deal with static players on the perimeter [emoji849]

I tried your sliders. It’s still too easy. This year may be a park/rec & play now year for my competitive edge. Driving is just not fun being it’s no skill at all. I even tried sending vids to 2k devs lol

[jclazaris84]

Re: Evidence why next gen pick and roll and help defense needs lots of work still

The defense overall is just plain bad. I put every defensive attribute to the max. I put my acceleration to 0 and still got to the rim at will

https://youtu.be/gFFzhgsFIfk

https://youtu.be/tMgaaYNvSgQ

(Before u watch Mute the video. I forgot to mute the mic. Very loud noise in background)

it's really discouraging that the simple fundamentals of basketball aren't in place after so many iterations of this game. yet so many resources are dedicated towards park/city and sneakers & gear.

[goma76]

Re: Evidence why next gen pick and roll and help defense needs lots of work still

it's really discouraging that the simple fundamentals of basketball aren't in place after so many iterations of this game. yet so many resources are dedicated towards park/city and sneakers & gear.

This is evil of the game.

Gameplay is going out of focus, who cares about P&R defence and other "small" things when the major part of community is worrying about hairstyles, gears, sleeves...

[Johnnythelegend]

Re: Evidence why next gen pick and roll and help defense needs lots of work still

it's really discouraging that the simple fundamentals of basketball aren't in place after so many iterations of this game. yet so many resources are dedicated towards park/city and sneakers & gear.

This exactly, I recorded a video similar to OP's while playing NBA 2K18, so pick and roll defense wasn't fixed for 2k19, 2k20 and now 2k21 has the same problem, even though it's next gen. Amazing, and we are talking about basic fundamentals of basketball. I really don't like when someone says don't abuse it, play in a realistic way. But pick and roll is the foundation of modern basketball, that's like saying don't pass to the wings in soccer they are op. I want to play basketball, and pick and roll is a basic part of it, fix the freaking defense.


I am so glad I haven't bought 2k21, first time since 2k9 when I got a 2k for the first time that I am not playing the game at this time of the year.