Re: Post Up Double Teams

[nogster]

Re: Post Up Double Teams

Good investigating man.
It must be a coding thing between eras.

I am seeing doubles and help come with the modern roster (as a base) but its not consistent and not smart...
Meaning. there is no scenario when a post player has a mismatch inside and is actively backing down, that help should not come. like that giannis video you posted. Realistically that would and should never be allowed to happen.
It happens too often with 2k23 (modern era) to the point it detracts from the immersion of what is otherwise a fantastic playing NBA sim.

[MarkWilliam]

Re: Post Up Double Teams

Curious- How are y’all ending up wit this many mismatches? Are you producing them to test?


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For me, I tend to look for them when I play. But considering 2K23 has only been out for 1 month (just under), honest answer here is for testing purposes.

But usually, I do look for the mismatch prior to each game I play and go to it as one of my first avenues to offense.

Example: I'm the Mavs vs anyone. Luka would typically match up with the opposiing point guard. Posting Luka will be one of the first things I'll go to until I can't find success there......

But further to this, my brother actually spotted this double team issue just by using 2001 Shaq. He basically was scoring on every post up and help never came....

[ILLSmak]

Re: Post Up Double Teams

Anyone else have issues with the AI not ever sending help to the post if you're dominating them?

You can bully for 30 in the 1st Q with someone on 90% shooting and help never comes.

Hoping there's a fix that I'm unaware of because I'm loving the game this year.

Tried coach sliders, difficulty level, defensive settings. Nothing seems to address it.

Interested to hear thoughts...

Even on cg yea. I’d like a dig or something. One of the best adjustments cpu makes is moving to soft double so it’s harder to just rocket the ball 70 ft into a post finish. That’s it tho. Dudes might be nearby but they don’t really even go for you when your teammate is in no man’s land (like deep 2 territory.)

-Smak

[daveberg]

Re: Post Up Double Teams

It's sounding like it's a coding issue with Eras, perhaps.

I was playing down low with Kemp yesterday and seeing double coverage after he scored an initial 8 or so points.

[tcnumba10]

Re: Post Up Double Teams

I got doubled in the post as Ewing in the 3rd and at times in the 4th quarter in a very close game against Orlando. Even on the last possession of a tie game, Ewing got doubled in the post and I was able to pass it to Starks for a buzzer beating, game winning 3. Not sure if there was an under the hood update last night?

[justintasha1996]

Re: Post Up Double Teams

Ok, I spent a couple of hours trying to run this down.

There could be a few things in play, but from what I have seen so far it may be an era specific issue(modern vs. Jordan for example). I can't say for 100% but you can see what happened with the default modern roster in my test that I posted previously.

I started testing with my Jordan era roster. First, I made a team of team of all Patrick Ewing's vs all Michael Adams(5'10" pg). I got double teams like crazy.

Second test was Ewing vs. Barkley. I didn't test very long but there were no instant double like with Adams.

Third test Ewing vs. Hersey Hawkins, back to instant doubles.

Then I moved on to actual team vs team games.

These are from my testing the first is cpu vs. cpu, the second is me as the 76ers.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/ttJH45Iqg08" title="YouTube video player" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Xavier McDaniel comes over to double Nick Anderson posting John Starks and gets the steal.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/ZxMFSSek1Fo" title="YouTube video player" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

I manage to get the pg(Andre Turner) matched-up on Chuck and start backing him down. The double comes a little late(could be the player who was coming to double ratings?) but it does come.

I was using JD's sliders since I still had them loaded and like I said they are not bad.

Here are the ratings I think would be relevant(may not be, but it can't hurt).

Nick Anderson: Post Control-77, Strength-53
John Starks: Interior Defense-60, Strength-37
Xavier McDaniel: Help Defense IQ-79(unsure if this matters)

Charles Barkley: Post Control-87, Strength-87
Andre Turner(being backed down): Interior Defense-28, Strength-52
Ledell Eackles(Coming to double): Help Defense IQ-48

I feel this shows that you can get the CPU to double in the post, in the Jordan era at least. There may be something hard-coded to the era's but as far individual players I have my doubts. The three players in the first video are all "real" players made by 2k(edited by me), the second trio are all players I created and edited.

The thing to keep in mind with the "hard-coded" part of the 90's(and possibly 80's) era is the illegal defense rules. In short in the 90's you HAD to play man to man defense and could not double team a player unless they had the ball. This led to a lot iso ball where a team would load 3-4 players to one side of the court and run a two man game(pick and roll for example) or an iso/post up of some sort. This video does a good job of explaining it and how Chicago used Scottie to game the system in the finals vs Utah.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/ZUiOvcDFD7c" title="YouTube video player" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

In conclusion, I also tried various setting for the cpu defense. I increased help D strength to 100, I changed the double in the post coach settings to on the catch and then back to manual(which is default and may be part of the issue but I can't say for sure just seems weird) and then to automatic. I couldn't tell if help d strength was making a noticeable difference. The coach setting gave mixed results at best. I saw doubles with every setting I tired, but the cpu did not double every time on the catch in post when I tested it. It seems that there may be specific areas of the court that the cpu considers "in the post" for the purpose of double teaming on the catch as I would not see double if the player caught the ball on the wing or mid-post and began to back down against an average defender.

Great work & Nogster I have seen you on here for years so I know you know your stuff.. Late last night I did spam from the top of the Key and was able to back down over and over without guys helping.. It' sad we need a patch. But the I just never tried that. I can definitely say that the Double team on catch, and dribble in the post doesn't work at all.

what I can say is my sliders and edits help a ton with the Cpu bringing help pretty consistently when running a normal offense. Not saying it's perfect every time. If the defensive settings would just work we would all be in heaven.

hopefully we get a patch soon.

I will definitely post the 91 roster with all my edits and changes as you guys who do this no you literally can touch every attribute,tendency,badge checking etc..

Crazy what we old guys will do to enjoy these games..lol

[DarthRambo]

Re: Post Up Double Teams

Idk why but in 90s era the AI doubles Rick Smits immediately from the first catch in the post the entire game. Every game. It's actually quite dumb lol. I just pass out to Chuck Person, Detliff, or Reggie for an open three if it's their man doubling.

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[qpc123]

Re: Post Up Double Teams

Idk why but in 90s era the AI doubles Rick Smits immediately from the first catch in the post the entire game. Every game. It's actually quite dumb lol. I just pass out to Chuck Person, Detliff, or Reggie for an open three if it's their man doubling.

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I tried testing this in my 91-92 roster and didn't get the same result. This was against the Suns. However I did test with a few other centers against the Suns since they were one of the few teams that would play "small ball" at the time with Tom Chambers or Tim Perry at center. I was playing as the Rockets and hit Olajuwon mid post with Ed Nealy on him after a failed Sleepy Floyd iso.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/LeEklAYmAi4" title="YouTube video player" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

I could be crazy, it could be a one time thing, but what I see there is what I call a triple-team.
Nealy is the first defender, Chambers comes over and Majerle comes down. It's not super effective as none of them are good defenders and Hornacek gets hung out to dry as a result but I was pretty surprised to see this.

[magiclakers32]

Re: Post Up Double Teams

I can't believe, that somehow this is actually happening. The logic seems so sound and almost OP in mycareer and jordan mode, that it's impossible for it to be this bad. but it is...smh

[VictorMG]

Re: Post Up Double Teams

It should be coded that if a player hits 3 shots in a row, they should be doubled no matter who they are by the CPU.

I've always had mad respect for you tc, but I have to disagree with you here. I think after three straight makes, maybe there can be either a hard/soft double on the next touch (just to keep the user guessing), but not necessarily a hard double every time after three makes in a row.

Unless that's what you meant. My bad if so******** src="moz-extension://cea915c9-7fb4-4c5f-aeeb-ba7e127a8370/js/app.js" type="text/javascript"></script>

[malek05]

Re: Post Up Double Teams

How 2k screw this up this bad

I played 10 games with the nuggets 12 min quarters with various defensive sliders. Out of hundreds of time I threw it to Jokic in the post I didn't see 20 total double teams

I don't really understand how people are playing and enjoying the game with this issue. There is just a whole level of basketball you can't even play because the cpu doesn't not only double correctly but not double at all. Virtually impossible to get an open 3 off a double against one of the greatest passing bigs ever cause the cpu won't double him

It's completely unplayable for me until this is fixed.

[jrose57]

Re: Post Up Double Teams

agree, cpu doesn't do any double team, this can be a game breaker because once they switch their small on my big and i can't go down low all day?

[jrose57]

Re: Post Up Double Teams

must keep pushing this until 2kdev sees this, gamebreaker thing right here, pls fixxxx!!!

[nogster]

Re: Post Up Double Teams

Yep definitely a significant issue.
Look there are post doubles. They do happen. I see more doubles in the 4th quarter occur though.
But I've seen Yao Ming doubled on his 1st touch of the game. And pretty regularly during the game.
But I've also seen prime shaq in the post in a mismatch with a guard (but when is it not a mismatch with Shaq in the post) and no hint of a double.

So. Yeah. Doubles do occur. But the logic is poor and must be adjusted.

Fyi. This is using a custom Modern era roster.

[jrose57]

Re: Post Up Double Teams

i don't know what we can do to push this issue to be patched but i think this is a game breaker, i mean you can ignore it, you can notice a mismatch and not abuse it, but thats not how nba works, it really takes out the total sim experience, though i m very concern that it takes a lot of coding fixing which might break other stuff in defense of the game (for the first year in years they did this right and i m dead scared they break it)