Scripted momentum/equalizer cheese

[ChiliPalmer]

Re: Scripted momentum/equalizer cheese

Uhm, I play MT since week one Beat it on November 14. And I'm a GoaT
in PON mode since Nov 2. Also I played MT primarily in 2k15 beat it countless times.

I am so used to hearing these kinda theories. But I have played enough games in which my opponent never had a run and I more than doubled them in score when the game finished, which tells me that scripted equalizer stuff doesn't exist.

In some games, of course I can't maintain the big lead and my opponent has some come back runs. Even if I play serious all game long, my opponent may start playing better compared to how he was playing before, or he can try different stuff that can catch me off guard, or he can figure out ways to better defend me or attack my defense... Or I may have the momentum going for me in the beginning of the game that gives me a good lead, but then the momentum turns against me at some point in the game and my opponent takes good advantage of it. Or he just gets lucky... All these stuff combined can prevent a blow out win from happening. But that's not 2k's doing...



That's what I mean by saying "there are other, much simpler explanations" than the 2k equalizer cheese theory.

It's human nature to blame other things for their problems. But I'd rather not to blame anything or anyone and instead just try to play better next time, try to be alert for when the momentum shifts and take action quickly.

It's also human nature to notice and get annoyed by things only when it happens to them.

Skilled or unskilled, every player out there makes contested layups with 3 defenders jumping, now and then... It's in the game. But people tend to complain about it only when it works against them.

I know I make some contact lay ups, even F grade shots occasionally... And I won't get mad when the same things happen against me and won't blame 2k for plotting against me.

You're not listening man. Im not talking about simple momentum and "now and then". And lmao @"blame things for their problems". Tell me smthg about human nature . If you had been here last year you would know i've always denied some scripted comeback/equalizer for some of the reasons you mentioned. Its definetely something else this year, but lets just disagree on that bud. I knew some dude would use this opportunity for useless polemic like "just play better, blah".

[synistr]

Re: Scripted momentum/equalizer cheese

it seems as if you have conditioned your mind to believe it doesnt exist so you can remain focused on the task at hand. thats cool. but the reality is, you can go to any forum and see this is well documented. if you dont believe it then thats cool too. fact is, this exists in some form in most sports games, not just nba2k. in some regards it has to exist in order to keep casual players interested and purchasing games. its not good business sense otherwise. while most agree it does exist in 2k, the argument is usually to what degree. I benefit from it at times as well so I know its not simply a one way thing. but it will be slanted more one way than the other because its built in to assist the lesser skilled player.

How does a video game differentiate between a skilled and non skilled player? usually by the playing pattern. if all else fails, it has to rely on whoever is losing by a wide margin. 9 out of 10 times that is going to be the less skilled player.

its not realistic for John Wall or someone with worse shooting ratings than him even to all of a sudden become a lights out shooter from behind the arc for a 2 min segment while under heavy duress (falling away from 30ft with hand in his face, this only happens once in a blue moon IRL but every game on 2k).

its not realistic when a Center can get caught on a switch and play lockdown on-ball d on any NBA PG much less one the caliber of CP3. yet this happens....not in one game...but consistently. how many times IRL you see Steph lose the ball 2 or 3 times in one possession from minimal defensive pressure?

my issue isnt with comeback engines because they exist in other games. my issue is with how 2k does it artificially and unrealistically. I can spend all day uploading video examples but I wouldnt get anything else done if I dedicated time to doing that. just played a Gauntlet game where you can clearly see the ball headed out of bounds and it "jumps" back into a players hand. I recorded it too. if it is not scripted, then I must have supreme clairvoyance to be able to predict exactly what is going to happen and when it will happen.

[synistr]

Re: Scripted momentum/equalizer cheese

You're not listening man. Im not talking about simple momentum and "now and then". And lmao @"blame things for their problems". Tell me smthg about human nature . If you had been here last year you would know i've always denied some scripted comeback/equalizer for some of the reasons you mentioned. Its definetely something else this year, but lets just disagree on that bud. I knew some dude would use this opportunity for useless polemic like "just play better, blah".

this is where he gets things twisted when he says a player who is losing starts playing better and therefore makes a run. we are not talking about that. thats realistic. I just played a game a few moments ago, and the game was close for a good portion and the other person was playing very well and controlled. then I start to pull away and as I widen the gap, the player (just like numerous others I play against) goes into rage mode and starts playing absolutely dumb just jacking up contested off balance 30 footers with my guy smothering him. he did this 3x in a row....but he made one of them. IRL if someone did that, they'd be benched, moreover that is a recipe to get blown out for sure. in a real game, you dont start chucking shots from 30' with hand in your face when you are down by 10 points with 2 min left in the 4th quarter. what is infuriating is when people are REWARDED for playing dumb.

[PandaPower2k]

Re: Scripted momentum/equalizer cheese

"it seems as if you have conditioned your mind to believe it doesnt exist"

Hmm, actually this is what I am talking about, with one minor difference that's bolded in the sentence... You guys seem to be conditioned to believe there is some come back engine built inside the game and it makes your opponent who is far behind, make impossible plays to catch up with you.

Honestly, I don't see it in my games. So I guess I'm a privileged customer... or there is a more simple explanation.

[synistr]

Re: Scripted momentum/equalizer cheese

"it seems as if you have conditioned your mind to believe it doesnt exist"

Hmm, actually this is what I am talking about, with one minor difference that's bolded in the sentence... You guys seem to be conditioned to believe there is some come back engine built inside the game and it makes your opponent who is far behind, make impossible plays to catch up with you.

Honestly, I don't see it in my games. So I guess I'm a privileged customer... or there is a more simple explanation.

forget everything we said and answer this question....

has your playing experience for the most part been thoroughly realistic and sim-like?

mine hasnt. I see way too much stuff that just doesnt happen in a league where you have the best players in the world in. the only thing I am pointing out is that I can tell exactly when these things will happen and to what degree.

[Kobrakai]

Re: Scripted momentum/equalizer cheese

I remember in the old NBA Live games there used to be an option called "Keep Scores Close" that you could toggle on and off, which would basically cause you to miss easier shots etc. the higher you got up.

Pretty sure it's in this game too to artificially level the playing field as it's pretty much always easier to hit contested 3 pointers etc when you are losing by 10 than up by 10.

To deny that something like this exists when you can literally see it happening over and over again is asinine.

This only applies to Allstar difficulty and above btw

Sent from my HTC_0PJA10 using Tapatalk

[PandaPower2k]

Re: Scripted momentum/equalizer cheese

this is where he gets things twisted when he says a player who is losing starts playing better and therefore makes a run. we are not talking about that. thats realistic. I just played a game a few moments ago, and the game was close for a good portion and the other person was playing very well and controlled. then I start to pull away and as I widen the gap, the player (just like numerous others I play against) goes into rage mode and starts playing absolutely dumb just jacking up contested off balance 30 footers with my guy smothering him. he did this 3x in a row....but he made one of them. IRL if someone did that, they'd be benched, moreover that is a recipe to get blown out for sure. in a real game, you dont start chucking shots from 30' with hand in your face when you are down by 10 points with 2 min left in the 4th quarter. what is infuriating is when people are REWARDED for playing dumb.

What makes you decide that it's a secret come back engine's doing?

People can take off balance 30 footers with your guy smothering him and hit it once in a while, even when they are ahead.

forget everything we said and answer this question....

has your playing experience for the most part been thoroughly realistic and sim-like?

mine hasnt. I see way too much stuff that just doesnt happen in a league where you have the best players in the world in. the only thing I am pointing out is that I can tell exactly when these things will happen and to what degree.

Not sure if this discussion have anything to do with sim basketball or realism. I think the game is better and more rewarding than it's ever been. (Playing the game seriously only since 2k10).

Some might argue that a come back engine would make it more realistic, too.

I'm not saying this game is perfect. I just don't think a come back engine exists and is affecting our games.

[synistr]

Re: Scripted momentum/equalizer cheese

What makes you decide that it's a secret come back engine's doing?

People can take off balance 30 footers with your guy smothering him and hit it once in a while, even when they are ahead.



Not sure if this discussion have anything to do with sim basketball or realism. I think the game is better and more rewarding than it's ever been. (Playing the game seriously only since 2k10).

Some might argue that a come back engine would make it more realistic, too.

I'm not saying this game is perfect. I just don't think a come back engine exists and is affecting our games.

30' falling away with hand in face "once in a while" yeah. not every freaking game. it happens every game where there is wide lead. and I have benefited from it, so I am not saying the game is only against me. the thing is, it happens to me less because I am usually the one up and not down.

I already told you that I think Comeback Engines in sports games are NECESSARY. I just dont think 2k knows how to implement this without being cheesy. By not having a Comeback Engine, you alienate the casual player who is not very skilled. By rewarding someone for stupid/unrealistic play while penalizing someone for smart/controlled play alienates the sim community. as Chillipalmer says, it may be best to have some separation in these modes when it comes to skill level. Also, btw....last year in RTTP people were playing on different difficulty levels then their opponents. Do you deny this as well?

[PandaPower2k]

Re: Scripted momentum/equalizer cheese

Also, btw....last year in RTTP people were playing on different difficulty levels then their opponents. Do you deny this as well?

I'm not 100% sure about it. But yeah, it felt like weaker line ups (probably from lower seeds) had easier time making contact lay ups or contested 3s at times in 2k15 (not only when they were behind though).

Oh btw, in the recent few weeks, contested shots are falling like rain. Especially in park almost every single game guys make deep 3s in my face despite a full green contest bar. But again, this happens to everyone, not just when you're behind.

[ChiliPalmer]

Re: Scripted momentum/equalizer cheese

It becomes borderline panda trolling now, but you know what. Any1 who denies it can play me and i will record and stream the game. Just DM me for psn.

In other news Russel Westbrick dunked not over 3 but 4 defenders last night as i half court trapped PLUS manually quadruppled on the drive.
Of course you can use these mechanics for own runs as well, just drive and draw the foul if you behind, no matter how many defenders contest. This has also to do with too many foul calls on drioves in traffic which should be toned down in general. When playing PNO these kinda things wont happen tho. I would say PNO is 90 % skill, while MT is about 50%.

[Craxior]

Re: Scripted momentum/equalizer cheese

It becomes borderline panda trolling now, but you know what. Any1 who denies it can play me and i will record and stream the game. Just DM me for psn.

In other news Russel Westbrick dunked not over 3 but 4 defenders last night as i half court trapped PLUS manually quadruppled on the drive.
Of course you can use these mechanics for own runs as well, just drive and draw the foul if you behind, no matter how many defenders contest. This has also to do with too many foul calls on drioves in traffic which should be toned down in general. When playing PNO these kinda things wont happen tho. I would say PNO is 90 % skill, while MT is about 50%.

PNO is more skill based because idiots don't have access to entire team of NBA legends. Really My Team is s cesspool cheeser paradise.

[ChiliPalmer]

Re: Scripted momentum/equalizer cheese

PNO is more skill based because idiots don't have access to entire team of NBA legends. Really My Team is s cesspool cheeser paradise.

This is true. Still, there are some dumb cheesers in PNO as well and they barely have a chance vs any skilled player.

[QNo]

Re: Scripted momentum/equalizer cheese

forget everything we said and answer this question....

has your playing experience for the most part been thoroughly realistic and sim-like?

mine hasnt. I see way too much stuff that just doesnt happen in a league where you have the best players in the world in. the only thing I am pointing out is that I can tell exactly when these things will happen and to what degree.

But 2k not being sim and 2k being scripted for certain players to win/comeback are two wholly separate claims. One is about programming not being great, the other about programming intentionally rigging the game for some reason.

I used to be an elite professional poker player. I made lots of money from people because they don't understand randomness. How could they, our brain developed in a very different way. It takes years of training to overcome some of these instincts. I recommend Nassim Nicholas Taleb - Fools of Randomness for an introduction as to how all of us commonly attribute things to our own abilities that are but a product of randomness.

Basketball and thus 2k is a game of very high variance. There is a reason playoff series are best of 7, not best of one. Variance trumps slight differences in skill in the short term (one or several games). But in the long-term, skill trumps variance.

Think about the 2013 finals. If Ray Allen doesn't make the shot in game 6, the series is over and the Spurs take the title. That shot will miss more than half the time, statistically. But this time it went in, enabling the Heat to go on to a game 7 that they would eventually win. Even championships get decided on the narrowest of edges.

The poker analogy I always give is that, on a given night, an amateur has like a 45-55 chance to come out on top of the best player of the world. That's how much random card distribution matters. But if they play every night for a year, the chances that the pro will be ahead are way above 99%. Now, I don't know what these probabiities in 2k are. So let us turn to an easier and simplified example instead.

Imagine if you play a good possession and get an open corner 3 with a good shooter. Let's stipulate that that 3 has a 40% probability of going on, which is a reasonable number. What are the odds that you miss two of these in a row?

The answer is 36%. Most people would guess that the probability should be much lower. For comparison, the probability that you make two such 3s in a row is only 16%. 48% of the time you're going to make one and miss one.

So, 36% of the time you will miss two open 3s in a row, an event that will lead many to cry out that the game is rigged. Now, let's say that your opponent will take a bad contested 3 in between your two shots and it goes in. Let us stipulate that that 3 goes in 25% of the time. Now, in the long run, the guy taking 40% shots will win, but it might just be that this is the one time where you miss both of your shots while your opponent makes his. The probability of this chain of events (you miss a good shot, he makes a bad shot, you miss another good shot) is 9%. Let us call this sequence of events WOAT.

9%! This is exactly the kind of thing that people will make angry forum posts and videos about, yet it is not terribly uncommon. We will probably have events like this (we miss a good shot, they make a bad one, we miss another good shot) many time in any given game against a bad opponent. If we have 10 such chains of events in a single game, chances are that the 9% scenario we described will happen once a game.

It might even happen more often in reality. Maybe we are playing very meticulously and get 40FGA in a given game, all of which are decent to good shots. Our opponent is a chucker, 20 of his 40 FGA are bad. In such an event, there will be an average of 2 WOAT sequences a game. The way our brain tends to remember bad instances like this and forget the good, 'normal', ones, this can quickly condition one to believe in comeback code, etc.

The explanation that one game mode (MT) has comeback logic while another (PNO) doesn't is especially troublesome. Why should 2k have such code for one mode and not another? The more straightforward explanation is that the differences between the 2 modes is what causes this change in perception (many superstars and thus making more tough shots, thus decreasing the edge 'solid' play has over 'chucking'/more badges/lower difficulty setting).

[ChiliPalmer]

Re: Scripted momentum/equalizer cheese

But 2k not being sim and 2k being scripted for certain players to win/comeback are two wholly separate claims. One is about programming not being great, the other about programming intentionally rigging the game for some reason.

I used to be an elite professional poker player. I made lots of money from people because they don't understand randomness. How could they, our brain developed in a very different way. It takes years of training to overcome some of these instincts. I recommend Nassim Nicholas Taleb - Fools of Randomness for an introduction as to how all of us commonly attribute things to our own abilities that are but a product of randomness.

Basketball and thus 2k is a game of very high variance. There is a reason playoff series are best of 7, not best of one. Variance trumps slight differences in skill in the short term (one or several games). But in the long-term, skill trumps variance.

Think about the 2013 finals. If Ray Allen doesn't make the shot in game 6, the series is over and the Spurs take the title. That shot will miss more than half the time, statistically. But this time it went in, enabling the Heat to go on to a game 7 that they would eventually win. Even championships get decided on the narrowest of edges.

The poker analogy I always give is that, on a given night, an amateur has like a 45-55 chance to come out on top of the best player of the world. That's how much random card distribution matters. But if they play every night for a year, the chances that the pro will be ahead are way above 99%. Now, I don't know what these probabiities in 2k are. So let us turn to an easier and simplified example instead.

Imagine if you play a good possession and get an open corner 3 with a good shooter. Let's stipulate that that 3 has a 40% probability of going on, which is a reasonable number. What are the odds that you miss two of these in a row?

The answer is 36%. Most people would guess that the probability should be much lower. For comparison, the probability that you make two such 3s in a row is only 16%. 48% of the time you're going to make one and miss one.

So, 36% of the time you will miss two open 3s in a row, an event that will lead many to cry out that the game is rigged. Now, let's say that your opponent will take a bad contested 3 in between your two shots and it goes in. Let us stipulate that that 3 goes in 25% of the time. Now, in the long run, the guy taking 40% shots will win, but it might just be that this is the one time where you miss both of your shots while your opponent makes his. The probability of this chain of events (you miss a good shot, he makes a bad shot, you miss another good shot) is 9%. Let us call this sequence of events WOAT.

9%! This is exactly the kind of thing that people will make angry forum posts and videos about, yet it is not terribly uncommon. We will probably have events like this (we miss a good shot, they make a bad one, we miss another good shot) many time in any given game against a bad opponent. If we have 10 such chains of events in a single game, chances are that the 9% scenario we described will happen once a game.

It might even happen more often in reality. Maybe we are playing very meticulously and get 40FGA in a given game, all of which are decent to good shots. Our opponent is a chucker, 20 of his 40 FGA are bad. In such an event, there will be an average of 2 WOAT sequences a game. The way our brain tends to remember bad instances like this and forget the good, 'normal', ones, this can quickly condition one to believe in comeback code, etc.

The explanation that one game mode (MT) has comeback logic while another (PNO) doesn't is especially troublesome. Why should 2k have such code for one mode and not another? The more straightforward explanation is that the differences between the 2 modes is what causes this change in perception (many superstars and thus making more tough shots, thus decreasing the edge 'solid' play has over 'chucking'/more badges/lower difficulty setting).

The sim question is a seperate topic, correct.

Why should 2k have such code for one mode and not another?

Because 2k wants to make the access for newbies to MT as easy and less frustrating as possible.

[QNo]

Re: Scripted momentum/equalizer cheese

Why should 2k have such code for one mode and not another?

Because 2k wants to make the access for newbies to MT as easy and less frustrating as possible.

They already do that, exhibited by the lowered difficulty settings. So their MT specific comeback code isn't good enough to achieve what they want to achieve by itself, they also have to (or, coincidentally do) lower the difficulty settings on top of that? Not very believable.