Scripted momentum/equalizer cheese

[synistr]

Re: Scripted momentum/equalizer cheese

Every time I play the chalenges that are all star, in the 4th quarter, i always miss every freaking shot and they seem to make every shot. people that shouldn't be making three's make three's. People that shouldn't be getting to the paint, get to the paint. It's like a 20-6 run every time. It's ridiculous.

yeah, that's pretty much what we are seeing. it doesnt happen to me all the time but like I said...seems like dumb play gets rewarded most. seems like CPU takes over and make that run all the way back to tie up or damn near then skill takes over again and runs other team out of the building. going into the 4th quarter with a lead is asking for it. you may break your controller.

[harryl]

Re: Scripted momentum/equalizer cheese

Some of these only apply to him, but a lot of them apply to the rest of his team, too. Imagine the Cavs are down 8 early in the 4th in New York. His Floor General, Defensive Anchor, and Road Dog have been active all game, giving everybody on his team a boost. Since his team is down and people are missing shots, Alpha Dog, Mentor, Heart and Soul get activated, too. Melo has been outscoring him, so Fierce Competitor gets activated. Since we're approaching Crunch Time, Closer gets activated (I believe it's the last 4 minutes).

I think QNo is right to point to how, on MyTeam, having an entire lineup that is full of team-enhancing Badges can explain a lot when it comes to wild momentum swings, especially in the 4th quarter.

Ever since the Ameythyst market crashed with the DPOY Packs, I've been able to field great lineups with all kinds of Badges that allow me to just crush in the 4th quarter...

PG: Steph Curry - Alpha Dog, Road Dog, Prime Time, Cool and Collected, Volume Shooter, Closer, Swagger, Heart and Soul, Floor General, Microwave, Dimer

SG: Kevin Durant: Alpha Dog, Road Dog, Prime Time, Closer, Fierce Competition, Heart and Soul, Microwave, Dimer

SF: Lebron James: Alpha Dog, Road Dog, Prime Time, Closer, Fierce Competition, Swagger, Mentor, Heart and Soul, Floor General, Defensive Anchor, Hardened, Microwave, Dimer

PF: Anthony Davis: Alpha Dog, Road Dog, Prime Time, Fierce Competition, Heart and Soul, Defensive Anchor, Microwave

C: DPOY Hakeem Olajuwon: Alpha Dog, Prime Time, Fierce Competition, Mentor, Heart and Soul, Defensive Anchor, Microwave

So, then, for much of the 4th Quarter, I've got a lineup with multiple Badges that buff the individual player and the team. They all have Microwave. At least 3 have Dimer. 3 have Defensive Anchor. A couple have Floor General.

I find that in the fourth quarter, **** just gets crazy and I'll have 3 or 4 players who are hot at one time, and usually at least 1 is on fire in the last few minutes.

It's just a landslide of big plays: someone makes a big block, someone gets an And-1, someone gets a steal, someone drops a 3, etc.

Against the CPU, I used to always feel like the Challenges (or Domination) games with All-Star-Studded lineups had ridiculous 4th Quarter Comeback Cheese, but now I see that it can just be this cumulative badge effect and multiple players getting hot at the same time, often on both sides of the floor.

So, yeah, I went into the 4th leading by 10, but the CPU has multiple guys on the floor with Fierce Competition and Heart and Soul and Closer and Floor General and Defensive Anchor.

And when I have the superteam, I go into the 4th with a comfortable lead and will often now be increasing the lead while not even playing very well.

Badges do a lot.

[synistr]

Re: Scripted momentum/equalizer cheese

^^

I agree, and I also agreed with QNo on that previously. Here is the issue though. What if the other team has the same badges? The problem with scripted stuff is...one team starts playing great while the other starts playing ****ty. that is the case EVERYTIME a swing happens.

that's not realistic, because what about IRL when you have teams going point for point and you have legendary battles between superstars? Like if you have KD and Lebron going blow for blow. The engine doesnt seem to incorporate that. What it does is lets one team get up then let the other comeback and vise versa until one of the teams pulls away.

I just dont like how the A.I. dictates a close game by having one team get hot and the other get cold for no reason whatsoever or losing the ball in an unforced turnover when you basically hadnt turned it over all game. this is the only mechanic it seems for keeping the game close. A lot of times I lose these games after being up for 3 quarters even with Alphas, Anchors, and Closers in the game.

[QNo]

Re: Scripted momentum/equalizer cheese

^^^^

Fully agree with both of your posts. 2k does not do a great job with their representation of momentum, as getting momentum at the right time against an equally good player means that you'll win the majority of the time. I really don't think that 2k gives one player momentum for no reason though, rather that the system gets out of hand with this many great players with great badges on the floor at the same time. One small mistake like holding turbo a little too long can lead to a turnover and thus spike a big chain reaction of badges. If this is right, the momentum system is unbalanced and broken, but you don't need any scripted outcome/equalizer conspiracy theory to explain why the game sometimes feels so weird.

I played an all-diamond lineup on my RTTP only alt today. I'm in the 3 Gold seeds and got matched up with some hacker:


I played well to begin the game and was up 33-32 at halftime. He had trouble to defend against my offense and tried to force it a little much with his supercards. He then slowly started to pull away in the third and at some point got a steal with Diamond LeBron that led to a dunk. Following this he went on a run and I was unable to recover. He got some a ton of those cheesy Diamond finishing animations, his John Wall even blocked Porzingis on a pretty open 3-point attempt. He blocked me 6 times total, which is very unusual for my playstyle as I don't tend to force it into the paint much at all. I try to score with Jumpshots or drive into open lanes. But you'd expect all of that when my poor silvers and golds (all unbadged) are matched up against a lineup like this.

[synistr]

Re: Scripted momentum/equalizer cheese

lemme rephrase....its not that the cpu gives momentum for no reason....the reason is to keep scores close or not have someone get beat by 40. there is a reason...but its not logically justifiable in its application.

the other night, at the end of the 1st quarter I was beating someone 19-3. I wasn't running and gunning or cheesing....just running great half court offense and great defense. I was expecting them to quit but they didn't. 2nd quarter they just went nuts and I called 3 timeouts and couldn't stop them. Mainly did turbo in the paint with Westbrook but either made impossible shots or got and-1s. they were hitting some 3's. at halftime they were up by 1. that was some bull****.

here is why. when I say no reason or unjustifiable is because this person never made any defensive adjustments and was playing exactly the same way he did in the 1st. we were both playing mirror games of the 1st quarter....but now my men just start committing unforced turnovers. got a man wide open for 3 and my PG throws ball out of bounds. just comes down and bounces ball out of bounds. all kinds of ****ery going on.

it was obvious I was better than this person who just started charging at my man and jumping and when he collides with my man, I lose the ball....but NO FOUL!!! the game was close and then I broke it open with about 2 min less and crushed him by about 12.

you may not feel it if you play a lot of close games but the worst thing to do is get up big because then it becomes an issue when a Casual thinks he can't keep up in this mode. so the cpu helps them out and gives them the illusion they can...without forcing them to improve. they don't set PoE's or defensive settings just barebones. the game never felt difficult at all, I could still do what I wanted to do and get where I wanted to get on the court....but my men were just cold while theirs got hot with no justification as to why. If Unfazed keeps you hot through timeouts and quarters then how do 3 guys get cold without taking a shot?

[ChiliPalmer]

Re: Scripted momentum/equalizer cheese

Its definitely not badges imo. Badges are in other modes as well, and if you play with All Star teams in a simple play now there are tons of badges too but its still a different experience.
There are heavy scripted hot and cold streaks (They can be even intensified by microwave badge). Have you noticed that sometimes you START a game with a cold ring?

Sometimes the whole team is cold from the beginning. Even if you make some shots in a row sometimes it wont go away. These random hot and cold streaks vizualize the scripted momentum.

And yes, its not for no reason, its to keep the score close, fully agree. As i said i guess its a way to make the game more accessible for beginners.

[synistr]

Re: Scripted momentum/equalizer cheese

Its definitely not badges imo. Badges are in other modes as well, and if you play with All Star teams in a simple play now there are tons of badges too but its still a different experience.
There are heavy scripted hot and cold streaks (They can be even intensified by microwave badge). Have you noticed that sometimes you START a game with a cold ring?

Sometimes the whole team is cold from the beginning. Even if you make some shots in a row sometimes it wont go away. These random hot and cold streaks vizualize the scripted momentum.

And yes, its not for no reason, its to keep the score close, fully agree. As i said i guess its a way to make the game more accessible for beginners.

its frustrating and mentally draining when you come out and play smart ball. great on-ball D, running great plays, etc....and you are slowly but surely putting your opponent in a hole, then all of a sudden here is that invisible switch that gets flipped. my FT's even get worse. its nothing worse then seeing players make impossible contested shots when your superstars can't buy a 10 footer. another thing that is hilarious is when Centers swipe down at the ball and strip my PG with no foul.

if 2k does allow for 1 or 2 user mistakes to trigger an avalanche of badges, then that would be even worse than scripted momentum. that would be pure unadulterated cheese.

[synistr]

Re: Scripted momentum/equalizer cheese

I know I am beating a dead horse here, but I just have to stress that Momentum is a necessary thing. It happens IRL. But Momentum should come from smart offensive or defensive play. When I start clobbering guys if they are inexperienced or not very good they start playing stupid. Jumping and lunging at every shot, reaching, taking contested 30 footers. They start this JUST BEFORE they get ready to quit. If a couple of these tactics don't work....then exit the game. If they get rewarded for it then they hang around and more rewards come. This is a waste of time because in the end sometimes they get blown out anyway.

If its a good player then the person who was up could end up losing. I like real momentum, like when someone makes a smart defensive play or they go to the post game or create some open opportunities. The cold rings are really a problem. They were never like this in any other release that I recall. You go cold by missing shots. this year that doesn't appear to be a factor.

[QNo]

Re: Scripted momentum/equalizer cheese

I'm as big a critic of the momentum in 2k16 as anyone. How it's triggered and how OP some badges are stand in no relation to user skill. I also think that there's a bug that sometimes makes your guy go cold instead of hot when they make a play. Seen it several times in the few Gauntlet games I've played. However, I still think that all of these issues can easily explain a lot of the RTTP gameplay issues, combined with sliders etc. Following Occam's razor, I just don't think that the much more complicated theories a la scripted outcomes are in any way necessary to explicate what's going on.

I'm rarely below 60% FGs with my full squad in RTTP. I really don't think I should be shooting much higher over the course of a game, even with a superstar squad.

[synistr]

Re: Scripted momentum/equalizer cheese

this is the most frustrating bull**** I ever seen. I just lost 3 games by a total of 5 points. I was up big early in every one of them. last one I was up 20-10 in first quarter. 2nd quarter comes and we both have our bench in. they went on 19-8 run, nothing I could do about it. called T/O they come right out and get and-1. and game was close for the rest of the way. then I lose basically because my men forget their defensive assignments all of a sudden.

had defense set to smother and deny and Korver wide open and my man way cross-court! I get transition cheese all of a sudden even though I never changed defense and all my subs are fresh. you can rush back with the center but how you stop Korver and Peja at 3 pt line when everybody else still in the backcourt? my men were getting held up by the defense from getting over the line.

transition cheese, yeah, its frustrating. defensive lapses are a bitch...but if I would've never gotten momentum cheese I would've won easily regardless of those things. when it started they just started getting and-1's and I was missing shotes and couldn't get a foul call.

team comparison, I shot way higher percentage, got more rebounds, more assists. they shot twice as many 3's as I did and made 3 more. they won by 1 point. again...if I don't get jerked in the 2nd quarter, I win by at least 7.

This last guy, I beat him several times before. He usually quits. QNo...sorry my friend, its scripted. The reason I know is because guys that usually quit...they know if they stick around the bail out is coming. This guy didn't do nothing but run around all day with Westbrook. I shut him down but when the cheese was strong he hit some 3's.

what I am supposed to do? not try and get out to a big lead early? to top things off I got a 0-0 loss.

Chilli? how do you stream? through Twitch? I gotta start streaming or recording this so you can see the difference in my play style and these bums that keep getting cheap *** wins on me.

[QNo]

Re: Scripted momentum/equalizer cheese

Would love to see a whole game that clearly shows that it's scripted.

[synistr]

Re: Scripted momentum/equalizer cheese

Would love to see a whole game that clearly shows that it's scripted.

when something is scripted, you know when its coming. I get out to big leads in the 1st quarter and if my opponent makes it to the 2nd quarter without quitting....the onslaught begins.

Player A: 58% FG 44% 3pt FG, 20 reb, 18 ast.
Player B: 44% FG, 41% 3pt FG, 14 reb, 13 ast.

Player A lost by 1pt.

not saying stats tell the whole story but my stat line shows that I aint no chump. I didn't take a stupid shot the entire game. My defense had them frustrated at times though and they jacked up some 35 footers...but were rewarded with long rebounds and a host of and-1's.

the only thing you can point to in this game as to why Player A lost is because of the big swing in the 2nd quarter. We both had our bench in, but when they went on run I put my starters back in and couldn't stop them. my starters kept me from getting blown out though...but were gassed by the end of the half. this screws with strategy because I don't want to call 3 T/O's and they all their starters are fresh again.

Its all good though....I do see where I can make some lineup adjustments so I can close out some of these clowns. I am still learning though because this is my first year of really playing RTTP. I went through first 2 seeds last year and stopped. Its frustrating losing these close games though because I am really playing good defense, I have been running T-Mac and Melo together and really building a good chemistry with them. They both are getting about 18ppg for me. The stuff that happens on these runs are pretty amazing though....and I don't think its badges because there was no big run in the 4th quarter of these games. The games were close except for the early runs.

I wouldn't call mine a run. I was just using patient offense and scoring in the half court. Theirs was a run because they just start driving in the paint and jacking up 3's.

[harryl]

Re: Scripted momentum/equalizer cheese

Given that you're sure that going up big triggers a gifting of momentum to the other player, why don't you minimize your lead to whatever margin won't trigger that? I.e., get an 8 point lead and, after that, just make sure you trade baskets until the end of the game?

Have you ever tried allowing yourself to get down big so that you get given a big momentum shift and, as a very good player, push that momentum so that you don't merely catch up but take the lead with everyone all heated up so that you can blow them out completely, presuming that there isn't enough time for them to get a counter-momentum-shift that allows them to turn it back around?

[synistr]

Re: Scripted momentum/equalizer cheese

Given that you're sure that going up big triggers a gifting of momentum to the other player, why don't you minimize your lead to whatever margin won't trigger that? I.e., get an 8 point lead and, after that, just make sure you trade baskets until the end of the game?

Have you ever tried allowing yourself to get down big so that you get given a big momentum shift and, as a very good player, push that momentum so that you don't merely catch up but take the lead with everyone all heated up so that you can blow them out completely, presuming that there isn't enough time for them to get a counter-momentum-shift that allows them to turn it back around?

I have went on big momentum swings too, but most of mine are when I put the other team away.

check this out though...and I want Qno to think about this objectively and not just chalk it up to coincidence.

In the past 2-3 days I played about 12 games. Won some, lost some. Some had swings, some didn't. Won some in both scenarios, lost some in both scenarios.

There was one constant variable though. EVERY SINGLE GAME where the game was close at the end of a quarter, it was close at the end of the next quarter. EVERY SINGLE GAME where the game was lopsided at the end of the quarter, the next quarter the team that was down came back to tie or take the lead. Like this game I lost by one point....it was lopsided in the 1st quarter then even by half...then it was within 5-7 points each way the rest of the way. The mechanic is to keep the game close.

I told you about the last game where I was up 20-10, 2nd quarter they come back to take the lead. I told you about the game where I was up 19-3, 2nd quarter they came back to take the lead.

I also played some games though where the score was within 5 points the entire game and those games had no huge swings one way or the other. So it seems like if its around 10 points or so. I really am not trying to lose and limiting my scoring deliberately would be point shaving IRL...lol.

Others can attest, whatever quarter you are going into with a big lead....the push is coming. The thing is, a lot of times when players get down more than 12 or so usually quit.

[Speedy]

Re: Scripted momentum/equalizer cheese

It's been stated 2K is a scripted game.

It's been stated Madden is a scripted game.

It's been stated MLB: The Show is a scripted game.

Developers from each game have verified this is not correct; I know it appears like that's the case...I know I've been unable to stop the AI when they're mounting a huge comeback and other times they couldn't stop me when I was mounting my own comeback - however, each situation could be explained logically once I took a step back.

OS has ventured down the comeback AI trail many times and while some offer insightful discussion, more often than not it only leads to users who want to chime in on the cynicism.

I'm closing this up.