Passing in the paint ?

[Sundown]

Re: Passing in the paint ?

There doesn't seem to be an overwhelming sentiment to reduce this. Most appear to be okay with the speed the defenders react. This is the only thing increased to decrease the the cheesing of lead passes inside. Remember the overall sentiment of cpu defenders not reacting fast enough or at all to passes in the interior... well heeeeerrrss JOHHHHHNNNNYYY rotflol.

The pass defense speed is a tad too fast. It would be nice for it to be adjusted-- but most of us aren't focusing on that because the problem is much more obviously the poor quality of the passes themselves. If the passes were improved and the CPU still reacted too quickly and picked off laser passes, then it would unmask potential problems with pass defense too. As is, we simply can't tell just how overpowered the AI is because passes in general are pretty crummy and probably should be picked off.

Also relaxing pass defense might be nicer in getting the pick and rolls to execute a little better. Last years was too powerful, but this year it seems ineffective. Of course, again, we're not sure if it's just the slow passes that are getting picked off or the defensive AI or a combination of both. But we can see that the passes aren't as good as they should be.

Passing touches almost every other aspect of the game. As such it is HUGE and not easily adjusted.

I sort of feel that's exactly why it should attempt to be adjusted-- as we're already seeing how it's negatively affecting almost every other aspect of the game. Having to pick between horrible fast breaks and potentially unrealistic in the paint play is like having to pick our poison when what looks like a potential cure is just slightly out of reach because it *might* have some side effects. I say give us a dose and see what happens. Better yet, test it on the monkeys in QA.

But if we could *only* relax the pass defense, then I say tone it down a bit and try to find a happy medium. It will appear a bit more realistic, open up fast breaks, and allow for better pick and rolls. I'll take slight potential cheesing to have two of the most common and powerful situations in basketball play out right than to have them be shut down unrealistically to prevent a couple of passes that shouldn't have gone through.

[Tackleberry]

Re: Passing in the paint ?

nothing wrong with passing into the paint people just dont pay attention to defensive players position because they never had to in past games

That's hogwash, why does everybody assume that people are blindly flinging passes into the paint? Most of the time the pass would be easily completed with a bounce pass or a lob, instead we get a telegraphed chest pass that is easily deflected by the opposition.

[BroMontana82]

Re: Passing in the paint ?

well if reaction time is the only thing easily adjusted then i would say tweak it a little. but i'm biased...i only play offline. i feel like you don't have a lot of control over passing in general but especially more so on the fast break.

[blues rocker]

Re: Passing in the paint ?

I understand that it might help to narrow down the analysis to fast breaks, but if the problem is more fundamental, wouldn't the right fix be to address the root problem rather than tinker with adding situational band aids or tinkering with things that might have adverse affects?

A lot of folks have looked at and thought about the effects of the passing flaws, and I know you have too. Seems a sensible thing to try is speeding up the passes a bit, improving the passing logic, and if necessary, relaxing the defense a bit and then seeing how the game plays out. Adjusting the pass defense alone might be problematic because of how slow the passes are. To nerf the defensive AI so much that it is ineffectual even against some slow, lobby, telegraphed passes the pass AI forces on us seems like it would cause potential breakdowns in other areas.



I really hope this will be reconsidered. It would seriously concern me if the whole game is balanced around slow lobby passes and bad pass logic.

Also, I think a lot of us feel that the game is *already* out of balance, given the strength of the AI defense and the slow passes. And it already affects a number of areas, including poor user fast breaks, unexpected turnovers (leading to fast breaks that shouldn't happen), and zones that can't be cracked conventionally (and are beaten only because of the unrealistic 3 point percentage). I think speeding up the passes a bit is worth a try at this point to see if more things will be brought into balance than knocked out of balance. I also remember reading a couple times that passes would be more responsive and snappier this year. Curious-- whatever happened to that?

The slow passes are also causing problems online. Combined with how little users are punished for steal spamming, it leads to too many turnovers and a dunk fest. Players can double team, steal spam, force the pass, then capitalize on the flawed pass engine. I know this is what pressure is supposed to do, but slow lobby passes hurt sensible ball movement.

yep i agree...2k needs to make pass logic their top priority next year so we can get passes that are quick AND appropriate for the passing angle (one-handed bounce passes to the left when it's appropriate, one-handed bounce passes to the right when it's appropriate, HIGHER lob passes when it's appropriate, etc.)

i don't know what type of system 2k uses for simulating a player's "virtual court vision" but i have some ideas for a system that might help...i wish i could really get into the specifics with a dev about how they handle the "pass type decision making".

[rhein77]

Re: Passing in the paint ?

I think it will best if we focus on the defender ai on the fast breaks. Make the defender commit to a defender and allow the person who is leading the break to make the correct decision. This dictates real basketball. The fast breaks are connected in the real nba at a high clip. It is off the charts with 3 on 1 breaks.

[SIZEqueen]

Re: Passing in the paint ?

nothing wrong with passing into the paint people just dont pay attention to defensive players position because they never had to in past games

Really? Do you really believe that?

[Da_Czar]

Re: Passing in the paint ?

I understand that it might help to narrow down the analysis to fast breaks, but if the problem is more fundamental, wouldn't the right fix be to address the root problem rather than tinker with adding situational band aids or tinkering with things that might have adverse affects?

Sundown you have many good point's. Here is the issue. And this is central to why dev's don't and can't spend a lot of time answering questions in forums.

User's think in absolutes passing is broken so fix it. When in fact passing could be any number of different systems. Some of what your seeing actually has nothing to do with "passing" There is a huge gap between what we as users "think" is going on and what is "actually" going on.

It would take a dev too much time and he would have to divulge too much proprietary information just to get you to understand why the problem is not what you think it is.

When you have so many moving parts there are some parts that are easiest to make adjustments to. This was one of those parts. It has absolutely nothing to do with the other systems that may or may not be causing the issues your talking about. Taking about solutions to those other areas will in this instance not assist or clear up anything it will only cloud the issue of this one thing that can be adjusted.

So to have the most influence with a dev when you get their ear the best thing is to stay on the topic. To find a bug or make a fix you have to identify exactly when and what is causing the issue and it needs to be repeatable so they can find it and then write the fix.

In this specific instance the only thing on the table is are we okay with the cpu's defenders reaction time on passes into the paint. That has nothing to do with slow passes. or bad passing logic. or anything else. Solely cpu reaction time to passes in the paint.

My tone is not negative and I hope this doesn't come across that I way I am trying to show you guys how to get the most bang for your buck when your talking to a dev and trying to get changes made.

I have learned that making games is FAR more complicated than I ever imagined. It is the ability to solve complex issues by addition without introducing newer ones... and there is ALWAYS a price to every decision be it cost , time, resources or manpower.

[Da_Czar]

Re: Passing in the paint ?

yep i agree...2k needs to make pass logic their top priority next year so we can get passes that are quick AND appropriate for the passing angle (one-handed bounce passes to the left when it's appropriate, one-handed bounce passes to the right when it's appropriate, HIGHER lob passes when it's appropriate, etc.)

i don't know what type of system 2k uses for simulating a player's "virtual court vision" but i have some ideas for a system that might help...i wish i could really get into the specifics with a dev about how they handle the "pass type decision making".

I will play devils advocate here. If they worked on the passing and it came out much better but it took all their gamplay time to do it would it still be worth it ? On the back of the box is only we have outstanding freaking passing. You know what the cry will be ??? I am not paying 65 dollars for blah blah blah LOLOL. Just playing advocate here Blues. Everything has a cost. Is that cost worth having 100 users say hey I think the passing is noticeably better this year...

This is completely hypothetical on my part but I do know passing is a beast of a system. BEAST !!!

[Sam Marlowe]

Re: Passing in the paint ?

I would focus on limited AI reaction tweaks (players all seem to have the same reactive abilities in some cases). It seems the larger issues can't really be addressed in the time period allotted for putting together a patch so I'd just focus on whatever won't cause more damage and is fairly easy to adjust or downright reverse if need be.

[blues rocker]

Re: Passing in the paint ?

I will play devils advocate here. If they worked on the passing and it came out much better but it took all their gamplay time to do it would it still be worth it ? On the back of the box is only we have outstanding freaking passing. You know what the cry will be ??? I am not paying 65 dollars for blah blah blah LOLOL. Just playing advocate here Blues. Everything has a cost. Is that cost worth having 100 users say hey I think the passing is noticeably better this year...

This is completely hypothetical on my part but I do know passing is a beast of a system. BEAST !!!

heh...yeah, i see what you're saying...but for me it would be worth it...they overhauled the post system this year, why not do the passing next year? i'm not saying that passing is the only thing they should work on all year...but it needs to at least get some attention. getting responsive passes and passes that are right for the available passing angle is probably the most crucial part to my enjoyment of the game. i understand that it's a complicated system to work on, but it would be worth it...i don't think it would take a huge overhaul - hopefully there's a way they can tweek what they already have...but, like i said, i don't know what their current system is, so i can't really comment on it...i think i have a pretty good idea to address the passing, but for all i know they already use something similar...though if they did have something similar, the passing would work better, so i don't know.

[Tackleberry]

Re: Passing in the paint ?

The question is being asked because you already know the answer. Ask yourself this... In real life, how many times do you see a 2on1 or 3on2 broken up because the defender gets a hand on the pass? Ask yourself the same question for pick and rolls. Now how often does either situation happen in this game?

All I see are online players whining because their unchecked egos can't handle losing. So they gripe and complain until something is done about it. I'm fed up with them getting their way while the offline players deal with jacked up AI. The percentage off offline to online users is severely tilted towards offline, there's a poll on this very site that proves it.

[bls]

I will play devils advocate here. If they worked on the passing and it came out much better but it took all their gamplay time to do it would it still be worth it ? On the back of the box is only we have outstanding freaking passing. You know what the cry will be ??? I am not paying 65 dollars for blah blah blah LOLOL. Just playing advocate here Blues. Everything has a cost. Is that cost worth having 100 users say hey I think the passing is noticeably better this year...

This is completely hypothetical on my part but I do know passing is a beast of a system. BEAST !!!

Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk

Czar, do you think it was possible for them to just keep the passing the same as last year but just work on the defensive rotations? I like the help defense this and and I think it would have combated a lot of the lead passing into the lane.

[Slava Medvadenko]

Re: Passing in the paint ?

Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk

Czar, do you think it was possible for them to just keep the passing the same as last year but just work on the defensive rotations? I like the help defense this and and I think it would have combated a lot of the lead passing into the lane.

This sounds good to me. Imagine last year's passing system, but with this year's defensive AI- much less psychic steals, and no overpowered lead passes. Devs couldn't implement all of last years system of course, but maybe parts of it, such as some of the pass animations when the defender is very close to you-the wraparounds and such instead of the notorious low overhead pass.

[MeloNYK7]

Re: Passing in the paint ?

Just as an FYI slow perimeter passing has nothing to do with slowing down cheesing. I am not saying you invented this phrase I have heard it a couple time tho and just wanted to make sure you guys know that is not what I am saying. I am only talking about the heightened cpu reaction speed to passing into the paint including half court and fast breaks.

There doesn't seem to be an overwhelming sentiment to reduce this. Most appear to be okay with the speed the defenders react. This is the only thing increased to decrease the the cheesing of lead passes inside. Remember the overall sentiment of cpu defenders not reacting fast enough or at all to passes in the interior... well heeeeerrrss JOHHHHHNNNNYYY rotflol.

I hear all of the other side notes on passing but I had the opp to have influence with this ONE piece and I wanted to see how you felt before I responded. I think I can see both sides of the argument and a lot extra...LOL Thanks !

Passing touches almost every other aspect of the game. As such it is HUGE and not easily adjusted.

ok if you are talking about the CPU's reaction to the passing in the paint, i do feel like when i'm playing the CPU they react pretty fast to passes but when i'm playing online my CPU teammates dont do that at all, they actually do the opposite which is not react at all or react really slow but maybe thats just me. and i know this wasn't your question but like other people have said, i do feel like sometimes the passing isn't responsive enuff, which results in delayed passes and turnovers.

[Da_Czar]

Re: Passing in the paint ?

Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk

Czar, do you think it was possible for them to just keep the passing the same as last year but just work on the defensive rotations? I like the help defense this and and I think it would have combated a lot of the lead passing into the lane.

I don't believe so because of the other upgrades