Why would you think blocking a dunk is realistic

[MarvinOida]

Live ball in 2k12 rewarded players but people weren't ready for those physics due to the ball being "really" live. Apparently the only part of human anatomy that can block a ball is the hands when irl and in nba games i see forearms and sometimes elbows blocking shots if defender jumps high enough lol. Anyways 2k will somehow get it right i hope

I missed those physics, that's what was great with Post O and D on 2K12, Controls in the post were great and the ball would get blocked/effect when A BODY PART was in contact with the ball. Sure it was annoying when it happens to you, and it might of happened too much in someone's opinion, but it was realistic. Now, a ball can go through you. In 2K12 and 2K13, the main problem is 2K can't find the perfect "extreme" and what can happen. The engine is great most likely, but how the game works is the debate.

[cj2008nw]

Re: Why would you think blocking a dunk is realistic

I miss the chase down blocks in 2k12!!!!!

[Slava Medvadenko]

Re: Why would you think blocking a dunk is realistic

There will probably be better dunk blocking in 2k14, but I hope it doesn't happen too frequently. A more common occurrence is that the blocker would force the dunker into altering his shot into a layup. Even if the defender is on the floor, he should make the dunker alter his shot in most cases if he is in the way. Sometimes when a dunk animation occurs in 2k13 the defender on the floor gets pushed out of the way.

Dunks that turn into layups in 2k13 are usually altered on takeoff. It would be nice if they were altered at the rim more often. Not in the manner of past games, where the dunks were awkwardly warped into a spazzy scoop layup, but in a more natural way.

[thedream2k13]

Re: Why would you think blocking a dunk is realistic

There will probably be better dunk blocking in 2k14, but I hope it doesn't happen too frequently. A more common occurrence is that the blocker would force the dunker into altering his shot into a layup. Even if the defender is on the floor, he should make the dunker alter his shot in most cases if he is in the way. Sometimes when a dunk animation occurs in 2k13 the defender on the floor gets pushed out of the way.

Dunks that turn into layups in 2k13 are usually altered on takeoff. It would be nice if they were altered at the rim more often. Not in the manner of past games, where the dunks were awkwardly warped into a spazzy scoop layup, but in a more natural way.

If they lowered the frequency of dunks in 2k due to defensive rotations it will be all good

[JazzMan]

Re: Why would you think blocking a dunk is realistic

Let me just leave these here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jx87atIFbKI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yi4MoRaP3Wk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4T68HR372Bk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6gddNWHNvk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NNzhmBMBoY0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMNeZEg0-v4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_6N7aHV-bKw

[SPRINGS03]

Re: Why would you think blocking a dunk is realistic

Live ball in 2k12 rewarded players but people weren't ready for those physics due to the ball being "really" live. Apparently the only part of human anatomy that can block a ball is the hands when irl and in nba games i see forearms and sometimes elbows blocking shots if defender jumps high enough lol. Anyways 2k will somehow get it right i hope

You're crazy, i don't know what baksetball you've watched or played but i can assure you, the ball does not get blocked by elbows and forearms nearly that often lol. In fact if it does it's considered a pretty weird/rare occurence. And this is coming from someone who has played a lot of basketball in real life too. That's not how physics work, those "live" ball physics were pretty bad. The physics need a good amount of work honestly.

[JazzMan]

Re: Why would you think blocking a dunk is realistic

You're crazy, i don't know what baksetball you've watched or played but i can assure you, the ball does not get blocked by elbows and forearms nearly that often lol. In fact if it does it's considered a pretty weird/rare occurence. And this is coming from someone who has played a lot of basketball in real life too. That's not how physics work, those "live" ball physics were pretty bad. The physics need a good amount of work honestly.

But yet, how many times do you see a ball go through someone's elbow in real life? We can't just ignore that.

[Rockie_Fresh88]

Re: Why would you think blocking a dunk is realistic

But yet, how many times do you see a ball go through someone's elbow in real life? We can't just ignore that.

Youre both right. the problem was this gen wasnt ready for it.

[Streaky McFloorburn]

Re: Why would you think blocking a dunk is realistic

You're crazy, i don't know what baksetball you've watched or played but i can assure you, the ball does not get blocked by elbows and forearms nearly that often lol. In fact if it does it's considered a pretty weird/rare occurence. And this is coming from someone who has played a lot of basketball in real life too. That's not how physics work, those "live" ball physics were pretty bad. The physics need a good amount of work honestly.

It's a rare occurrence IRL because real basketball players tend not to shoot the ball in situations where it would run into someone's body. I know it's taboo to suggest that anything is user error in videogames, but this line of thinking has gone on too long. The game didn't suck shots into elbows or forearms, the wrong shot was used for the position the player was in. It never made anyone dribble the ball off a teammate's leg either, they chose to initiate the turbo dribble at the wrong place and time.

After the first couple times of seeing what the live ball could do, I adapted. I never got my shot blocked by anything other than a hand, because I knew how to create space for a jumpshot, or use a hook shot, turnaround, or fadeaway when posting up or tightly covered with the clock running out, and use the situation-appropriate layups when driving. When my opponent or the CPU blocked me, I knew they earned it. I If I ever dribbled the ball off of a teammate, I knew it was 100% my fault.

None of the scenarios affected by the live ball were two player animations, they were all initiated by the player with possession, period. If anyone couldn't figure that out and make the adjustment, that's their problem. But everyone who could figure it out and thought it was a step in the right direction got punished because of the reactions of people who just wanted to keep playing the way they were used to prior to 2k12.

There are plenty of valid criticisms to be made, but if all the devs hear being talked about are things that are only problems for lazy players, then we end up with highly functional gameplay elements removed or nerfed in the next release.

"The definition of insanity is..."

Why do some people expect to be able to do something the same way over and over, despite all evidence to the contrary?

[mango_prom]

Re: Why would you think blocking a dunk is realistic

You're crazy, i don't know what baksetball you've watched or played but i can assure you, the ball does not get blocked by elbows and forearms nearly that often lol. In fact if it does it's considered a pretty weird/rare occurence. And this is coming from someone who has played a lot of basketball in real life too. That's not how physics work, those "live" ball physics were pretty bad. The physics need a good amount of work honestly.

Really? So I can pass through your elbows if I want to? So how exactly would you improve physics? Obviously you don't know how reality works, so what about getting rid of gravity for 2k14? The live ball concept is exactly what future games need in order to take the next step.
There's nothing wrong with saying you simply don't like this concept because it's not fun to you.
But if you think that's not how physics work, you conclusion is simply wrong.

[SPRINGS03]

Re: Why would you think blocking a dunk is realistic

It's a rare occurrence IRL because real basketball players tend not to shoot the ball in situations where it would run into someone's body. I know it's taboo to suggest that anything is user error in videogames, but this line of thinking has gone on too long. The game didn't suck shots into elbows or forearms, the wrong shot was used for the position the player was in. It never made anyone dribble the ball off a teammate's leg either, they chose to initiate the turbo dribble at the wrong place and time.

After the first couple times of seeing what the live ball could do, I adapted. I never got my shot blocked by anything other than a hand, because I knew how to create space for a jumpshot, or use a hook shot, turnaround, or fadeaway when posting up or tightly covered with the clock running out, and use the situation-appropriate layups when driving. When my opponent or the CPU blocked me, I knew they earned it. I If I ever dribbled the ball off of a teammate, I knew it was 100% my fault.

None of the scenarios affected by the live ball were two player animations, they were all initiated by the player with possession, period. If anyone couldn't figure that out and make the adjustment, that's their problem. But everyone who could figure it out and thought it was a step in the right direction got punished because of the reactions of people who just wanted to keep playing the way they were used to prior to 2k12.

There are plenty of valid criticisms to be made, but if all the devs hear being talked about are things that are only problems for lazy players, then we end up with highly functional gameplay elements removed or nerfed in the next release.

"The definition of insanity is..."

Why do some people expect to be able to do something the same way over and over, despite all evidence to the contrary?

Eh, i'm gonna disagree. For one it's not all user error, i know how to use hooks and various shots and create space. But you are limited to certain animations in the game(often times very stiff ones) It's a rare occurrence in real life because bball players don't shoot the ball in a weird way that it would hit somebody's elbow, or random body part not simply because they take smart shots. Shot blocks happen all the time in the NBA, now tell me how many of those shot blocks are with elbows and forearms? Exactly. It was more of a developer issue than a simple "people just need to play better issues". The line of thinking that everything that is a problem with the game is just a result of people sucking has been overdone for a while. And you assume everyone just hated those phsyics because they sucked or whatever, when really they just didn't like how unrealistic they looked. You know how many times i blocked a computers shot with a random body part in 2k12? You know how unsatisfying and unrealistic that is? It's sooo much more than the cliche "learn to play better noob" excuse that people throw around to defend any flaws in the game all the time.

The way the physics were implemented in 2k12 didn't make sense honestly, they were overdone. We went from one extreme to the other.

And the dribbling off the leg thing was broken too, i don't see how anyone could defend it. You say it's just due to people using turbo dribble at the wrong time(i'm gonna assume when there are any defenders present you think it's a bad time to dribble fast) but it was so unrealistic. First of all,in real life players can turbo dribble without pushing the ball into the back of a defenders leg, i don't know why you would think that's realistic lol. How many times have you seen a good point guard sprint up the court with defenders near by or even when they're covered by defenders? And people don't tend to push the ball that far ahead of them when there's defense close by(you can dribble fast without doing that.) Also, how about when you turbo dribble and one of your teammates runs in front of you and knocks the ball out of your hands? Is that realistic and also user error? No, it's something that has no place in a basketball game(at least not that often). Nobody does that in real life, and when players sprint in real life with the ball they have more control of it than that. I know when i played bball and i sprint with the ball i've never had a turnover as a result of dribbling it into someone's leg. So nah, that aspect was unrealistic and just had no place in a basketball game the way it was. In the future if they can implement real ball physics better, i'm all for it.

[SPRINGS03]

Re: Why would you think blocking a dunk is realistic

Really? So I can pass through your elbows if I want to? So how exactly would you improve physics? Obviously you don't know how reality works, so what about getting rid of gravity for 2k14? The live ball concept is exactly what future games need in order to take the next step.
There's nothing wrong with saying you simply don't like this concept because it's not fun to you.
But if you think that's not how physics work, you conclusion is simply wrong.

Cute strawman. I guess i could of worded that a bit differently, i assumed people would get what i meant. It's more like, that's not how basketball works/plays. Basketball games do need live ball physics in the future, just not broken unrealistic ones. I don't like the concept because it's executed unrealistically, simple really.

[mango_prom]

Re: Why would you think blocking a dunk is realistic

Cute strawman. I guess i could of worded that a bit differently, i assumed people would get what i meant. It's more like, that's not how basketball works/plays. Basketball games do need live ball physics in the future, just not broken unrealistic ones. I don't like the concept because it's executed unrealistically, simple really.

I get your point and agree that such features need to be executed well in order to make sense. But on the other hand, if live physics improve realism, I could absolutely live with some issues.
So let's say 2k implements new physics for 2k14 and we have the problems you've mentioned already all over again. This could be frustrating if sometimes the system doesn't work as intended, and it will happen with every engine change.
But personally I could tolerate that if it means abusing of lead passes and unstoppable dunk animations are toned down. I'd rather have that than the current mess.
If too much deflections off elbows will be the most unrealistic aspect of 2k14, it's the greatest game in the history of mankind.

[Ramboooo]

Re: Why would you think blocking a dunk is realistic

While I like this logic, it doesn't make much sense in the context of a basketball game aimed at casuals. Now personally, I'd love a game based on replicating stats of an NBA game with full 12 min quarters. But you won't sell this to all the "8KB24" and "DRoseftw"-kids.
So if you actually want to compare the frequency of blocked shots in 2k to a real game, you'd basically have to rebuild 2k14 from scratch.

And dunks in general, going by the "it should happen as often as in real life"-logic...here's a link with dunk attempts adjusted per 36 min for the 10/11 season. http://weaksideawareness.wordpress.c...ba-in-2010-11/

You'll notice that even superstars don't dunk more than 3 times on average over the course of a full game. According to these stats Kobe dunked one time every second game, with Lebron at 1,19 and Durant at 1,52.
Now take a random 2k13 game with 5 min quarters, less than half a full game. It would be realistic to have dunk attempts scaled down accordingly, leading to less blocks, too.
Now you can't expect attention to details like this from a company promoting a Jay-Z name tag as the biggest feature of their latest game.

But since you would like blocks happening as frequent as in real life, do you think the same way about dunks,points in the paint, fatigue in short online games, circus shots, spin dunks and alley oops?

I see what yer saying, but I think my point wasn't that it should replicate nba stats exactly, I was trying to show how rare the play is in real nba. I think blocking dunks should happen more, but still rarely. Collision detection in the paint and on drives could use a boost. But playing defense is possible. I've impeded progress and then blocked the awkward shot they put up -- hundreds of times in blacktop. I've blocked a ton of layups and a few dunks. Then again I have the eraser sig skill. Then again others have posterizer and finisher sig skill. So I think that has a lot to do with it also.
This is not a big issue though. If blocking a dunk is your last line of defense, then that just shows the offense is getting way too close to the hoop, and the offense deserves the benefit / favor of the game physics in most cases (not all).

[Streaky McFloorburn]

Re: Why would you think blocking a dunk is realistic

But you are limited to certain animations in the game(often times very stiff ones) It's a rare occurrence in real life because bball players don't shoot the ball in a weird way that it would hit somebody's elbow, or random body part not simply because they take smart shots. Shot blocks happen all the time in the NBA, now tell me how many of those shot blocks are with elbows and forearms?

I never said every shot animation in the game was acceptable. The live ball had nothing to do with bad shot animations. The problem is the false equivalency of "shots hitting elbows and forearms = live ball bad", when it should be "shot animations bad". Live ball physics are not to blame for a type of shot that puts the ball somewhere it shouldn't go.

The line of thinking that everything that is a problem with the game is just a result of people sucking has been overdone for a while. And you assume everyone just hated those phsyics because they sucked or whatever, when really they just didn't like how unrealistic they looked.

We can play this game all day and never get anywhere.

You know very well that there are more people knocking functional game elements than defending broken ones, you know that at least some of those complaints are from people who haven't taken the time to master the game yet, and you know that while the vast majority of those complaints may be normal healthy venting, they don't bear any resemblance to constructive criticism that actually helps the game get better. Coddling players by removing/nerfing things in direct response to venting seems like catering even more to the casual crowd. Is that an invalid concern?

And when I say I wasn't blocked by random body parts, I'm telling the truth. So even though I can avoid it, it's not reasonable to assume that other people can too? Should I assume that I'm crazy instead, and doing something wrong by not getting those blocks?

You know how many times i blocked a computers shot with a random body part in 2k12? You know how unsatisfying and unrealistic that is? It's sooo much more than the cliche "learn to play better noob" excuse that people throw around to defend any flaws in the game all the time.

Of course I don't know how many times it happened to you. All I can say is that one or both of us are exaggerating our experiences based on how we felt, or we play the game in very different ways.

It's not that you're playing it wrong, but if I'm having a less frustrating experience than you are, why wouldn't you want to acknowledge that the game could potentially be less unsatisfying?

People who actually say "learn to play better noob" are pretty tactless, but no one here is doing that. I take responsibility for my own experience, and say, "if I can do it, so can you."

The worst cliche of all has become "2k11 was the best game in the series!" People forget the reasons we don't still have a lot of things they liked about 2k11. It's because at the time, folks complained endlessly about those things, and there were fewer voices opposing the idea that everything sucked or trying to understand how to refine them, instead of piling on in every rant session.

The way the physics were implemented in 2k12 didn't make sense honestly, they were overdone. We went from one extreme to the other.

The thing is, none of what you didn't like has anything to do with physics, it has to do with animations which the live ball revealed to function poorly. Are you starting to see my point yet?

People said "waaah, live ball", instead of "these animations need to be adjusted so they don't run the live ball into stuff."

Do you honestly prefer "waaah" to "learn to play better noob"? They both seem pretty useless to me.

And the dribbling off the leg thing was broken too, i don't see how anyone could defend it. You say it's just due to people using turbo dribble at the wrong time(i'm gonna assume when there are any defenders present you think it's a bad time to dribble fast) but it was so unrealistic. First of all,in real life players can turbo dribble without pushing the ball into the back of a defenders leg, i don't know why you would think that's realistic lol.

But people have these things called eyes, they can see the way the animation works, they can make the connection between pushing the ball out in space and needing to make sure there's nothing in that space. Just because the animation isn't ideal doesn't mean you can't easily avoid the problems it causes. And I'll say it again: The animation caused a problem with the live ball, not the other way around.

How many times have you seen a good point guard sprint up the court with defenders near by or even when they're covered by defenders?

Is this meant to illustrate that good point guards have no problem dribbling with defenders nearby? Well, they also certainly aren't going to leave the ball completely unprotected with a defender right in front of them...but if that's what you meant, you're proving my point about choice as much as your point about bad design.

And people don't tend to push the ball that far ahead of them when there's defense close by(you can dribble fast without doing that.)

Pushing the ball out in front made the dribble feel fast in a way that it hadn't before, and you didn't see anyone complaining about that when it wasn't hitting legs/feet.

It also wasn't a problem unless someone was directly in front of you, in a perfectly straight line with your dribble. How hard is it just to shift laterally a step before pushing the ball out again?

Also, how about when you turbo dribble and one of your teammates runs in front of you and knocks the ball out of your hands? Is that realistic and also user error? No, it's something that has no place in a basketball game(at least not that often). Nobody does that in real life, and when players sprint in real life with the ball they have more control of it than that.

Really, this happened to you? I never had a teammate randomly veer in front of me, because I didn't run right next to them with turbo held. If they weren't right next to you, you should've had time to let go of turbo before they got there, or just wait to use it in the first place until they got out of your way. After I saw how the turbo dribble worked, I avoided hitting things with it quite easily, without ever feeling like I was walking on eggshells to accomplish that feat.

I know when i played bball and i sprint with the ball i've never had a turnover as a result of dribbling it into someone's leg. So nah, that aspect was unrealistic and just had no place in a basketball game the way it was. In the future if they can implement real ball physics better, i'm all for it.

But again, you also have a much finer degree of control over your own body than you can ever have over a videogame character whose every action is dictated by animations. The game provided the tools to easily avoid dribbling the ball into someone's leg - just like the real you!

You choose not dribble the ball into someone's leg IRL, it's not like it requires absolutely zero thought or coordination, it's due to you being extremely aware of how your body works and well-practiced at the activity, to the point that it feels natural. You can't expect to immediately use a brand new videogame technique as comfortably as using your own body.

Once you understand how it works, you choose whether or not to activate a certain animation in a potentially risky situation.

You can't argue that you've never seen an NBA player push their dribble out in front of them. You can't argue that if there was something in front of the ball when they did that, it wouldn't hit that thing. NBA players use the right dribble for the situation. NBA 2k players don't always make that same choice.

You don't like the animation, fine. But it's not accurate to say that it was an impediment to the game. It quickly felt very natural to me to use it when appropriate and avoid it when conditions were hazardous, and I never felt like my overall performance suffered for those choices. I know others could've done the same.

The live ball was never what people really had beef with, it merely revealed a symptom of potentially problematic animations.

I feel like the negative response to live ball physics may have contributed to the dissatisfaction with 2k13's shot blocking. It upsets me to think that people complaining about the wrong things in 2k12 created an unnecessary new issue in 2k13, or that overreactions towards elements of any past or current title could potentially harm future games in the series.

Just to be absolutely clear, the more "live" the ball is, the better the game can be.
The more body parts the ball can interact with, the better the game can be.
Blame most often rests with specific animations, or a lack of them.
Physics aren't implemented, they implement.