RttC re-balancing thoughts (Attn: Brad, NWGD)

[Illmatic1909]

Re: RttC re-balancing thoughts (Attn: Brad, NWGD)

Seasons are just a stopgap. Im currently in legends tier so I will use it as an example. The champion of my season will receive a star card plus 375credits.While in theory we are getting "free credits" the cost of posting and selling a star card will cost 1520credits. 1520-375=1145. That extra 1145 credits has to come from somewhere.

They really don't.

I don't get what people are getting at. How can credits get any more "scarce" for free players? If that's the case, credits were scarce from Day 1 when you could only get credits from the daily bonus. Credits will never be scarce as long as they can be bought; and for free players, if what they're giving you isn't enough (which is more than it has ever been)...it's time to look at other options. Grind more, sell more or pay money...it's the life of a free player in a freemium game.

[ActionJack]

Re: RttC re-balancing thoughts (Attn: Brad, NWGD)

As for the scarcity argument, that's interesting. It may or may not happen though.

I'm not sure I buy the notion that the AH was originally flooded with hoarded credits. Credits hoarded from what? Ladder rewards?

I'm not sure what's funding the market. It could be a small percentage of huge spenders. It could be a lot of mid level spenders. It's definitely not CD giving away credits. I'm really not sure what's keeping credits in the system right now, so I don't know how likely it is that credits will dry up at whatever point.

[Sir Master Tim]

Re: RttC re-balancing thoughts (Attn: Brad, NWGD)

I'm afraid that we will never be able to figure out to what percentage does each credit is come from -- free credit from CD, or somewhere, someone who use real money to purchase credits, and spend that credit on an item that you list, and bid it, for example.

The relatively selfish way to make peace with this situation, is to just focus on yourself and ignore the thought on "where are these credits come from". I can tell you that up to 3, 4 weeks ago I played almost 30K games and I got less than 1000 credits, never spend any credits or real money on the game. Until I read the post in OS I realize that instead of trained away my below Leg cards for my Leg, I could have sell those cards to make credits and to get what I need/want. I think I did OK to sell cards in AH (before the end of the most recently RC), and I was able to find some folks here to get some star cards for pro, get myself a better lineup, hoping for a better rewards.

Long story short, I saved those credits from daily bonus (maybe 90% of my credits) and season (10% or less of my credits) so that I could afford the 20 credits of listing. It really was a "hit or miss" thing if you are low on credit, but if you do sell 1 card (e.g. UR or Epic) then your reward is probably 10X or more of what you paid (20 credits) for listing a card in AH. Is it worth it? I think that depends on how you value your time, because free players are trading time with credits, in reality (getting a good card, train it, sell it, and get those tiny amount of free credits).

But the cost for me, as an individual, isn't anything monetary but time. The good thing is your entree fee to make more credits is a virtual currency, and it can be free. The bad thing is that even if you are a successful businessman in the game and make tons of credits -- they are not real money. If we want to talk about saving and making money, stock market is the better place to be (and to do).

Every cloud has a silver lining, let's just hope that the next game will be even more free player friendly (I was one of those guys who have never had a 3X star rewards in Star season, but played more games compare to a lot of other folks.)

I don't look at situations from my own point of view. Would I want a kicka** lineup that could beat everyone elses? Ya probably but then about 30 games into it I would get bored and want to start from scratch(I intend to do it anyway). I brought this question up as it is a problem that is toxic to BOTH the players AND CD. This is a game of progress and reward. If I cant progress by selling my cards and upgrade my deck what am I going to do? Spend money or quit? Most people tend to give up when they lose hope. Not all of us spend money on this game do to situation or choice. The role of free to play players is undervalued as they progress the market and create some sort of demand. The value of P2P players is also undervalued because without them then the market would already be dead(No credits). The problem with CD form of economics is that they depend on P2P players to make sure their is currency(credits). If a few of these players decide to stop supplying credits their could be a recession(small or large) which could snowball into large losses of players further killing the market. This isn't a plea to make the game easier , this is just a notice from an active player that enjoys the game.


DONT TURN A BLIND EYE TO ECONOMICS

[Sir Master Tim]

Re: RttC re-balancing thoughts (Attn: Brad, NWGD)

They really don't.

I don't get what people are getting at. How can credits get any more "scarce" for free players? If that's the case, credits were scarce from Day 1 when you could only get credits from the daily bonus. Credits will never be scarce as long as they can be bought; and for free players, if what they're giving you isn't enough (which is more than it has ever been)...it's time to look at other options. Grind more, sell more or pay money...it's the life of a free player in a freemium game.

This isn't a free to play issue. If P2P players cant sell there loot that they don't need will they continue to buy credits? The notion that players can simpy buy credits isn't a bulletproof option. Theres even a thread of players that use to buy credits saying they will not be buying credits anymore(or maybe it was a thread about cards that turned into im not spending anymore cash on this game)

[Illmatic1909]

Re: RttC re-balancing thoughts (Attn: Brad, NWGD)

This isn't a free to play issue. If P2P players cant sell there loot that they don't need will they continue to buy credits? The notion that players can simpy buy credits isn't a bulletproof option. Theres even a thread of players that use to buy credits saying they will not be buying credits anymore(or maybe it was a thread about cards that turned into im not spending anymore cash on this game)

It's definitely a free 2 play issue...because credits will never be scarce for P2P. P2P will still buy from other spenders and take the loss that comes because it's better than it was before. P2P may buy from free players (training fodder, enhancements). Free players, just like any aspect of this game, will have to decide if they want to build up credits slowly, or pony up and improve a little faster. It's the way these games work.

Prior to the AH there was a 100% tax on sales and the game still made money. The fact of the matter is that CD wants people to buy credits...not for credits to constantly cycle through the economy. Eventually, all players will come to the fundamental question of: do I pay more to improve my deck faster, or grind and improve at a much slower rate? The RC and RttC are viable ways to improve your deck without costing you any credits. Again, maybe not as fast as you like, but it is still improvement.

The AH is more a victim of being released into a supply heavy economy five months into a game. It is what it is for this year, as NWGameDad has said. When credits become scarce for free players, they'll have to ask themselves that fundamental question...and therefore fall into the pit that all free players fall into when playing freemium games.

[eVizions]

Re: RttC re-balancing thoughts (Attn: Brad, NWGD)

Ummmmmm... I'm talking math here.

The $67 tag being thrown around is a disingenuous half truth. The take I have on that matter is steeped in fact. It's not an opinion.

The only thing that would keep that $67 number from being a half truth, is if people don't actually understand how wrong it is (they'd still be wrong, but at least it'd be honest).. which isn't the case. The one dude broke down how $67 isn't the right number when taking free credits and AH sales into account.. then went right on using it.

That's the definition of disingenuous.

I'm sorry, but I'm just right here. I know it's polite to pretend both sides of every single argument are equally right, but nah... wrong is wrong.

Huh? I don't know what "math" you're talking about, but unless we know the amount of credits that CD hands out for free vs. the number of credits that people buy, your equation is incomplete.

You're not "just right" at all. What you're providing is your opinion. Your point of view. Your perspective. You aren't providing anything more factual than anybody else.

Maybe the $67 price tag isn't completely accurate, but it's not entirely off. Many (if not most) other virtual economies use an alternate form of credits that can't be (legally) purchased directly. There, you can say that a price doesn't correlate. Here, that's what it costs to actually buy a pack. Whether you purchase it or you buy it with credits that other people purchased, the majority of the credits being used were likely bought with real money. We don't know the percentages, but based on the tiny amounts you get from Daily Bonus (next to nothing) and seasons (slightly more than next to nothing), my guess is most credits were actually purchased. Therefore, the cost of that pack is probably pretty damn close to the $67 that was stated.

[ActionJack]

Re: RttC re-balancing thoughts (Attn: Brad, NWGD)

Huh? I don't know what "math" you're talking about, but unless we know the amount of credits that CD hands out for free vs. the number of credits that people buy, your equation is incomplete.

You're not "just right" at all. What you're providing is your opinion. Your point of view. Your perspective. You aren't providing anything more factual than anybody else.

Maybe the $67 price tag isn't completely accurate, but it's not entirely off. Many (if not most) other virtual economies use an alternate form of credits that can't be (legally) purchased directly. There, you can say that a price doesn't correlate. Here, that's what it costs to actually buy a pack. Whether you purchase it or you buy it with credits that other people purchased, the majority of the credits being used were likely bought with real money. We don't know the percentages, but based on the tiny amounts you get from Daily Bonus (next to nothing) and seasons (slightly more than next to nothing), my guess is most credits were actually purchased. Therefore, the cost of that pack is probably pretty damn close to the $67 that was stated.

You just love being wrong, don't you? And you seem to live fighting losing battles, just to do it.

The $67 price tag is clearly make believe.

I've bought upwards of 20 MVP packs, and I spent less than $5 in total. Again, I don't think I'm necessarily representative, but at least I'm talking reality. You guys just keep harping about bull**** that doesn't actually happen.

The way the game ACTUALLY works, people aren't spending $67 per HOF pack. They're just not.

I swear, if you just acknowledged reality, based your arguments of that, and went from there, your arguments would be so much better. As they are, it's hard not to just flatly dismiss it.

[CedricFP]

Re: RttC re-balancing thoughts (Attn: Brad, NWGD)

I am not smart enough to follow this idea through to its logical conclusion, but what if instead of adjusting pack prices, minimums, fees, etc., they decreased the cost of buying credits with real money?

Obviously, there is a disconnect between how people perceive 10,000 credits' value, and what it's "actual" value is. This disconnect must be originating from somewhere.

[eVizions]

Re: RttC re-balancing thoughts (Attn: Brad, NWGD)

You just love being wrong, don't you? And you seem to live fighting losing battles, just to do it.

The $67 price tag is clearly make believe.

I've bought upwards of 20 MVP packs, and I spent less than $5 in total. Again, I don't think I'm necessarily representative, but at least I'm talking reality. You guys just keep harping about bull**** that doesn't actually happen.

The way the game ACTUALLY works, people aren't spending $67 per HOF pack. They're just not.

I swear, if you just acknowledged reality, based your arguments of that, and went from there, your arguments would be so much better. As they are, it's hard not to just flatly dismiss it.

Again, you think you're somehow right? Let me use smaller words. If 95% of credits are being purchased instead of given out, then that $67 price tag is not "make believe". Just because you aren't buying the credits doesn't mean that the credit fairy is leaving them under your pillow. They come from somewhere, mostly from people paying actual money for them. This is how economics works, whether it's real or virtual.

[Sir Master Tim]

Re: RttC re-balancing thoughts (Attn: Brad, NWGD)

It's definitely a free 2 play issue...because credits will never be scarce for P2P. P2P will still buy from other spenders and take the loss that comes because it's better than it was before. P2P may buy from free players (training fodder, enhancements). Free players, just like any aspect of this game, will have to decide if they want to build up credits slowly, or pony up and improve a little faster. It's the way these games work.

Prior to the AH there was a 100% tax on sales and the game still made money. The fact of the matter is that CD wants people to buy credits...not for credits to constantly cycle through the economy. Eventually, all players will come to the fundamental question of: do I pay more to improve my deck faster, or grind and improve at a much slower rate? The RC and RttC are viable ways to improve your deck without costing you any credits. Again, maybe not as fast as you like, but it is still improvement.

The AH is more a victim of being released into a supply heavy economy five months into a game. It is what it is for this year, as NWGameDad has said. When credits become scarce for free players, they'll have to ask themselves that fundamental question...and therefore fall into the pit that all free players fall into when playing freemium games.

My bad my statement wasn't complete. This isn't a free to play ONLY issue. You say P2P players can simply buy more. Im saying P2P players can simply quit. We can argue over wether players will continue to buy creds or not. We can make up whatever reasoning sounds legit but in the end it comes down to data only CD has. If CD has definite evidence on the amount of credits in circulation and it points to stability for a prolonged periode of time then good for them they proved me wrong. If its something they don't have or havnt payed attention to then there needs to be an effort to change that. No succss story has been made on borrowed time.

[ActionJack]

Re: RttC re-balancing thoughts (Attn: Brad, NWGD)

Again, you think you're somehow right? Let me use smaller words. If 95% of credits are being purchased instead of given out, then that $67 price tag is not "make believe". Just because you aren't buying the credits doesn't mean that the credit fairy is leaving them under your pillow. They come from somewhere, mostly from people paying actual money for them. This is how economics works, whether it's real or virtual.

But the credit fairy IS gifting these. That Credit Fairy is CD and their AH.

Prior to AH, every transaction was a cash transaction. Your cards had zero value.

Now, you get credits for virtual (worthless) goods, for no reason other than CD just decided to let it be so (for their own good, of course). The fact that credits recycle AT ALL, spits in the face of your argument. It used to be, buy credits, spend credits, poof they're gone.

Now if I buy 15000 credits for $100, that amount can buy me a Star Pro off the AH, and those funds can buy a HOF pack for the seller. $100 just bought 25000 credits worth of cards. How is the equation the same as before (when the pack:money equation WAS 1:1)? Especially when most of us are selling cards we're getting for free!

The game allows us to turn stuff we got for free, into credits. Yes, those credits come from somewhere, but even with the enormous 30% tax, they still RECYCLE, and THAT is an absolute gifting of credits. They didn't recycle 3 months ago. That ABSOLUTELY changes the equation. You can ignore that all you want, since blah, blah, blah, FIFA, whatever... but you're just wrong.

[Sir Master Tim]

Re: RttC re-balancing thoughts (Attn: Brad, NWGD)

But the credit fairy IS gifting these. That Credit Fairy is CD and their AH.

Prior to AH, every transaction was a cash transaction. Your cards had zero value.

Now, you get credits for virtual (worthless) goods, for no reason other than CD just decided to let it be so (for their own good, of course). The fact that credits recycle AT ALL, spits in the face of your argument. It used to be, buy credits, spend credits, poof they're gone.

Now if I buy 15000 credits for $100, that amount can buy me a Star Pro off the AH, and those funds can buy a HOF pack for the seller. $100 just bought 25000 credits worth of cards. How is the equation the same as before (when the pack:money equation WAS 1:1)? Especially when most of us are selling cards we're getting for free!

The game allows us to turn stuff we got for free, into credits. Yes, those credits come from somewhere, but even with the enormous 30% tax, they still RECYCLE, and THAT is an absolute gifting of credits. They didn't recycle 3 months ago. That ABSOLUTELY changes the equation. You can ignore that all you want, since blah, blah, blah, FIFA, whatever... but you're just wrong.

The addition came with drawbacks to. The AH was an addition. The rewards for seasons and RC were drawbacks. I would definitely take 3 stars(wether I could dupe them or not) over a star and 1000creds. Now not everyone feels this way but we cant just say CD gave us an AH and not address the things they took away.

[ActionJack]

Re: RttC re-balancing thoughts (Attn: Brad, NWGD)

The addition came with drawbacks to. The AH was an addition. The rewards for seasons and RC were drawbacks. I would definitely take 3 stars(wether I could dupe them or not) over a star and 1000creds. Now not everyone feels this way but we cant just say CD gave us an AH and not address the things they took away.

I'm not talking about whether or not it was a good or bad addition. All I'm saying is that it changes the valuation of cards and packs. Pretending it doesn't is just a joke.

[eVizions]

Re: RttC re-balancing thoughts (Attn: Brad, NWGD)

But the credit fairy IS gifting these. That Credit Fairy is CD and their AH.

Prior to AH, every transaction was a cash transaction. Your cards had zero value.

Now, you get credits for virtual (worthless) goods, for no reason other than CD just decided to let it be so (for their own good, of course). The fact that credits recycle AT ALL, spits in the face of your argument. It used to be, buy credits, spend credits, poof they're gone.

Now if I buy 15000 credits for $100, that amount can buy me a Star Pro off the AH, and those funds can buy a HOF pack for the seller. $100 just bought 25000 credits worth of cards. How is the equation the same as before (when the pack:money equation WAS 1:1)? Especially when most of us are selling cards we're getting for free!

The game allows us to turn stuff we got for free, into credits. Yes, those credits come from somewhere, but even with the enormous 30% tax, they still RECYCLE, and THAT is an absolute gifting of credits. They didn't recycle 3 months ago. That ABSOLUTELY changes the equation. You can ignore that all you want, since blah, blah, blah, FIFA, whatever... but you're just wrong.

There was no virtual economy 3 months ago. You can't use that as a valid argument in regards to the virtual economy now. Recycled credits or not, that money came from somewhere and doesn't stay in the economy for very long with a) 30% being taken from every transaction, and b) 100% being removed from circulation on any pack that can't be sold. Credits aren't recycled very much, because there isn't a way to resell much of anything for a profit.

[ActionJack]

Re: RttC re-balancing thoughts (Attn: Brad, NWGD)

There was no virtual economy 3 months ago. You can't use that as a valid argument in regards to the virtual economy now. Recycled credits or not, that money came from somewhere and doesn't stay in the economy for very long with a) 30% being taken from every transaction, and b) 100% being removed from circulation on any pack that can't be sold. Credits aren't recycled very much, because there isn't a way to resell much of anything for a profit.

Wow. Just wow.

You're hopeless.