problems with Live's player models - my critique (images and examples included)

[youngfaze01]

Re: problems with Live's player models - my critique (images and examples included)

http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u...6681/nash5.jpg

His face isn't that big

It was just an example to show that his head could have been a lil' bigger.

[stephensonmc]

Re: problems with Live's player models - my critique (images and examples included)

actually there is a right and a wrong - it's called anatomy - the human arm is built a certain way and its various parts have a certain proportion and shape.

2k's models have lower poly counts, and therefore don't look as smooth (2k's elbows are razor sharp and their fingers are square due to lower polygon count) but 2k's proportions and anatomy are perfect - I have no problem with 2k's anatomy.

Live on the other hand has smoother, high-poly models, but the anatomy and proportions are wrong...just look at some anatomy books or something. there is a right and a wrong to anatomy.

lol, nevermind....

[blues rocker]

Re: problems with Live's player models - my critique (images and examples included)

lol, nevermind....

haha...I assume you are laughing because you think I am some kind of 2k fanboy - that is totally false. I am just an artist with a lot of experience in anatomy who is trying to help and point out ways to improve the proportions and anatomy of the models.

I have played both 2k and Live in the past and I believe Live 10 will actually be a better game than 2k based on what I am seeing. I am actually rooting for Live because I believe EA is making better strides and is moving in a better direction in many areas of gameplay.

don't make the mistake of thinking I'm a biased fanboy. There is a right and a wrong to human anatomy. I'm not praising 2k's anatomy because I'm a 2k fanboy, I'm prasing it because 2k's anatomy is correct, even though their models do have more visible angles and polygons, their overall proportions (size of arms in relation to body, size of head, etc.) are simply correct based on the scientific principles of human anatomy.

I went to art school for 4 years and spent much of it studying human anatomy (years of figure drawing, portrait drawing, etc.). I have studied many anatomy books over the years - no joke.

[TMagic]

Re: problems with Live's player models - my critique (images and examples included)

Blues Rocker, you are on point here man.

Great thread and good job providing and detailing exactly what you are trying to get across. These are the types of things that can really help a developer and is the type of feedback that I believe they are looking for.

Kudos man.

[pbz06]

Re: problems with Live's player models - my critique (images and examples included)

haha...I assume you are laughing because you think I am some kind of 2k fanboy - that is totally false. I am just an artist with a lot of experience in anatomy who is trying to help and point out ways to improve the proportions and anatomy of the models.

I have played both 2k and Live in the past and I believe Live 10 will actually be a better game than 2k based on what I am seeing. I am actually rooting for Live because I believe EA is making better strides and is moving in a better direction in many areas of gameplay.

don't make the mistake of thinking I'm a biased fanboy. There is a right and a wrong to human anatomy. I'm not praising 2k's anatomy because I'm a 2k fanboy, I'm prasing it because 2k's anatomy is correct, even though their models do have more visible angles and polygons, their overall proportions (size of arms in relation to body, size of head, etc.) are simply correct based on the scientific principles of human anatomy.

I went to art school for 4 years and spent much of it studying human anatomy (years of figure drawing, portrait drawing, etc.). I have studied many anatomy books over the years - no joke.

Unfortunately, 99.9999% of people won't be zooming in and over-analyzing player models by using their subjective scale of reference and complaining about things that might be an inch or two off if upscaled to life size.

As long as the animations during gameplay look smooth, and the overall players are proportional to each other, then game on. I'm not going to be too worried about personal opinions on the forearms of players.

[blingballa333]

Re: problems with Live's player models - my critique (images and examples included)

haha...I assume you are laughing because you think I am some kind of 2k fanboy - that is totally false. I am just an artist with a lot of experience in anatomy who is trying to help and point out ways to improve the proportions and anatomy of the models.

I have played both 2k and Live in the past and I believe Live 10 will actually be a better game than 2k based on what I am seeing. I am actually rooting for Live because I believe EA is making better strides and is moving in a better direction in many areas of gameplay.

don't make the mistake of thinking I'm a biased fanboy. There is a right and a wrong to human anatomy. I'm not praising 2k's anatomy because I'm a 2k fanboy, I'm prasing it because 2k's anatomy is correct, even though their models do have more visible angles and polygons, their overall proportions (size of arms in relation to body, size of head, etc.) are simply correct based on the scientific principles of human anatomy.

I went to art school for 4 years and spent much of it studying human anatomy (years of figure drawing, portrait drawing, etc.). I have studied many anatomy books over the years - no joke.

I'm sorry but that statement is very vague and unstable. What have you seen from 2k10 that makes you think that Live will be the better game. Oh yeah..... nothing, nothing at all. All i'm saying is reserve judgement until it's actually applicable.

[blues rocker]

Re: problems with Live's player models - my critique (images and examples included)

Unfortunately, 99.9999% of people won't be zooming in and over-analyzing player models by using their subjective scale of reference and complaining about things that might be an inch or two off if upscaled to life size.

As long as the animations during gameplay look smooth, and the overall players are proportional to each other, then game on. I'm not going to be too worried about personal opinions on the forearms of players.

haha i agree - gameplay is 1st priority. in the end, the player models will not determine if a buy the game or not, it's just something I noticed and wanted to point out (since they said they'd be working on player models).

and again - the proportion of the human forearm is not a matter of opinion.

[blues rocker]

Re: problems with Live's player models - my critique (images and examples included)

I'm sorry but that statement is very vague and unstable. What have you seen from 2k10 that makes you think that Live will be the better game. Oh yeah..... nothing, nothing at all. All i'm saying is reserve judgement until it's actually applicable.

true, I haven't seen gameplay from either game, but based on Live's vast improvment in 09 and the way the developers have been listening to and interacting with the gamers on OS, it appears they are going to make even bigger strides this year.

2k, on the other hand has been a bit stagnant over the last couple of years and has been regressing a bit in terms of player control due to overly canned animations.

(Czar's 4th video really shows where Live has surpassed 2k). We will see if 2k can fix the problems Czar pointed out, but I just have a feeling they didn't do much.

[stephensonmc]

Re: problems with Live's player models - my critique (images and examples included)

haha...I assume you are laughing because you think I am some kind of 2k fanboy - that is totally false. I am just an artist with a lot of experience in anatomy who is trying to help and point out ways to improve the proportions and anatomy of the models.

I have played both 2k and Live in the past and I believe Live 10 will actually be a better game than 2k based on what I am seeing. I am actually rooting for Live because I believe EA is making better strides and is moving in a better direction in many areas of gameplay.

don't make the mistake of thinking I'm a biased fanboy. There is a right and a wrong to human anatomy. I'm not praising 2k's anatomy because I'm a 2k fanboy, I'm prasing it because 2k's anatomy is correct, even though their models do have more visible angles and polygons, their overall proportions (size of arms in relation to body, size of head, etc.) are simply correct based on the scientific principles of human anatomy.

I went to art school for 4 years and spent much of it studying human anatomy (years of figure drawing, portrait drawing, etc.). I have studied many anatomy books over the years - no joke.

haha, not the case at all homie. I just realized that I'm talking too much and not showing you, or better yet, having Ryan Santos explain it to you. It's no use at the moment because we just have to show and not talk.

[michaeljordanjr]

Re: problems with Live's player models - my critique (images and examples included)

true, I haven't seen gameplay from either game, but based on Live's vast improvment in 09 and the way the developers have been listening to and interacting with the gamers on OS, it appears they are going to make even bigger strides this year.

2k, on the other hand has been a bit stagnant over the last couple of years and has been regressing a bit in terms of player control due to overly canned animations.

(Czar's 4th video really shows where Live has surpassed 2k). We will see if 2k can fix the problems Czar pointed out, but I just have a feeling they didn't do much.

I think you and I are the only ones that get 2K is regressing. No one else seems to notice or want to admit it. So I'm not looking forward to anything 2K has to show and am looking forward to what Live has to show. Simply because the leader is Mike Wang, and like All-State, you're in good hands.

Regarding porportions, anatomy etc... I think the poly count in 2K is just higher than EA. I think that's a budget thing via producers. Less polygons means less definition and players that look deflated.

Example for comparison:
NBA2K9



NBA LIVE 09



They have always been skinnier and "deflated." Now I don't know if it's the MODELERS or the POLYGON budget. The pictures show you definition in 2K9 vs over compensating lighting. live 09

It just needs to change.

[blues rocker]

Re: problems with Live's player models - my critique (images and examples included)

I think you and I are the only ones that get 2K is regressing. No one else seems to notice or want to admit it. So I'm not looking forward to anything 2K has to show and am looking forward to what Live has to show. Simply because the leader is Mike Wang, and like All-State, you're in good hands.

Regarding porportions, anatomy etc... I think the poly count in 2K is just higher than EA. I think that's a budget thing via producers. Less polygons means less definition and players that look deflated.

Example for comparison:
NBA2K9



NBA LIVE 09



They have always been skinnier and "deflated." Now I don't know if it's the MODELERS or the POLYGON budget. The pictures show you definition in 2K9 vs over compensating lighting. live 09

It just needs to change.

I think Live has higher polygons, because the models are always very "rounded" and you never see any sharp angles along the edges of the legs, arms, head, etc. It is simply the proportions that are wrong (the length and size of the arms in relation to the rest of the body, the size of the head in relation to the rest of the body) - that is not a polygon count issue, it is simply the responsibility of the developers to get those proportions correct.

If you look at the Iverson 2k pic, you can see a lot of sharp angles on the arms (even on the headband you can see some sharp points). That is due to lower polygon count...but, the proportion and shape of the arms, size of the head, etc. are more correct, even though there are some angular edges visible.

[23]

Re: problems with Live's player models - my critique (images and examples included)

I do happen to agree with blues rocker about the proportions. That has been the complaint of all of the fans of bball games.

2k gets criticism too, and they werent always that good. Players used to look like tanks, and I mean all of them. They were all buffed out like football players....even in that pic above which was an early WIP pic of 2k, AI has guns which he doesnt have in real life.

They both need work in one way or another.

[michaeljordanjr]

Re: problems with Live's player models - my critique (images and examples included)

I think Live has higher polygons, because the models are always very "rounded" and you never see any sharp angles along the edges of the legs, arms, head, etc. It is simply the proportions that are wrong (the length and size of the arms in relation to the rest of the body, the size of the head in relation to the rest of the body) - that is not a polygon count issue, it is simply the responsibility of the developers to get those proportions correct.

If you look at the Iverson 2k pic, you can see a lot of sharp angles on the arms (even on the headband you can see some sharp points). That is due to lower polygon count...but, the proportion and shape of the arms, size of the head, etc. are more correct, even though there are some angular edges visible.

You're right about that too. I don't know why 2K has always felt like I'm looking at the real life player, perhaps its the bulk or the size.

Anyway, if its a proportions issue and not polygons that I'm seeing then I still stick to my original argument in the thread that the artists involved aren't doing a good enough job taking a look at the real players and modeling every detail.

To paraphrase: there's AWKWARDNESS that people like me without degrees have noticed since Live 2004/2005.

[ai2k2]

Re: problems with Live's player models - my critique (images and examples included)

Well keep talking blues rocker. Cause its earlier and you have valid points my man. Most that's going to happen is the Live guys are going to take it to Ryan and fix it. We won't know if they did or didn't thanks to the info though. Because the pic's out now are WIP so any improvement could be said as early photos result. But as long as things are pointed out and they see. That's all that matter, wheter you get credit or not. That's what OS is about. Hardcore gamers point out everything. Down to the wood in the floor being the wrong color. Damn right! That's how we got our rep. Member us as criticle members is what makes OS. Period! (I'm starting to like that word) lol... everyone just breathe, at the end of the day. Its video games. But let's shoot for perfection, or don't log on.

[youngfaze01]

Re: problems with Live's player models - my critique (images and examples included)

Well keep talking blues rocker. Cause its earlier and you have valid points my man. Most that's going to happen is the Live guys are going to take it to Ryan and fix it. We won't know if they did or didn't thanks to the info though. Because the pic's out now are WIP so any improvement could be said as early photos result. But as long as things are pointed out and they see. That's all that matter, wheter you get credit or not. That's what OS is about. Hardcore gamers point out everything. Down to the wood in the floor being the wrong color. Damn right! That's how we got our rep. Member us as criticle members is what makes OS. Period! (I'm starting to like that word) lol... everyone just breathe, at the end of the day. Its video games. But let's shoot for perfection, or don't log on.

Damn Right!