problems with Live's player models - my critique (images and examples included)

[michaeljordanjr]

Re: problems with Live's player models - my critique (images and examples included)

You guys can argue this until your face turns blue; Live and 2k both have issues with player models especially when it comes to facial features. I've seen players that look dead on as their counterparts in Live while in 2k they looked disfigured. This goes for both games. I don't think you should be hard on the developers when it comes to elbows and forearms. What matters most is the game play which live has taken a step in the "WHAT THE HELL IS GOING" direction. Live players bounce around the court like they have springs in their spinal cords. The most important thing and #1 priority in live is fixing the game play. 2nd most important thing is getting the facial features correct. Then we can all worry about elbows. Great post man, but you're nit picking.

Remember, 2k players are much bigger then live. You honestly can't tell what the graphics lare like unless you zoom in during instant replay. And another thing for EA Sports developers; you want to promote authenticity, you better get on it FAST.

You're right and wrong, brother.

The fact that Live has had it wrong for so long while 2K has had it, not "right" but, "Better" excludes any "what's perfect" argument.

The sad truth is we have had no competition in the NBA series of games. 2K has dominated since it entered. The engine was ahead of its time for sports games. When I got 2K for dreamcast I was in awe.

But I'm not a 2K Zombie like Madden fans are. (Sorry Madden fans but it's ridiculous you buy an identical product every year and don't demand anything but more features. I hope BACK BREAKER takes all your fans away.)

2K has been declining, steadily. This is a fact. ISOMOTION was a disaster from it's inception. The arcade style dunking. The clipping. The non-existent defense. The random animations you don't know how you triggered etc...

This is due to complacency. EA made it easy for 2K to stagnate without recourse by their customers.

I can go on all night with detail but we all know the story and I'm probably boring enough with this post...

This thread is great constructive criticism and let's continue that.

[MarvellousOne]

Re: problems with Live's player models - my critique (images and examples included)

I don't care what Live does in terms of gameplay improvements, as long as they have them ridiculously looking player models, there is no way I'm buying that game. The thinking is if u don't know what a realistical NBA basketball player looks like then how can you make me a basketball game?

Look at the pics of Nash, that's just no excuse for that. Is it not common sense that Nash obviously don't have those big shoulders and arms? All live player models follow this same ridiculous pattern year after year, and thats why I will continue to not purchased their basketball product year after year.

I really do have to disagree, about the gameplay part. What makes sim basketball is the gameplay that's where it starts. Visuals and gameplay make a game complete but what's the point in a game that looks great but the play on the court doesn't represent true sim ball. When you speak of sim/authentic you should be thinking gameplay first, I have a feeling if Live had 100% accurate models and horrible gameplay you won't be buying there product because it would be a waste of money for something you would not play to enjoy, might as well just watch a true nba game and not worry about buying a game if the game doesn't have authentic NBA play

[LEGENDoflegends]

Re: problems with Live's player models - my critique (images and examples included)

How can u possibly get gameplay right when u can't get the player models right? Let's think about it for a moment. And I think my theory is accurate because ever since Live's models have been inaccurate(cartoony), their gameplay has been terrible, along with the models. 2k's models look more realistic IMO, and I think no one can argue that 2k has had the better gameplay the last few years. We have only seen a few pics and already there are issues? I am willing to bet it will be the same with the gameplay, as usual. There is obviously a pattern here, terrible player models, terrible gamplay. Yet EA is claiming they are changing the gamplay? But yet we still see the same neglect with the playermodels that have plagued the game for years. You think the gameplay will be better? Do the math.

Let's look at this from a mechanic perspective. If you can't do something as simple as take the wheel off the car without messing up the lugs, then how can you change the break pads? In video game relation, EA is claiming they have improved their work in fixing the break pads, but yet they still can't take the wheel off the car correctly? How about the theory, learn to crawl before u can walk?

You have to have the entire package to create a sim package, not bogus models but then claim u have good gameplay. IMO models and realistic players is part of a good sim package.

[krazyboy225]

Re: problems with Live's player models - my critique (images and examples included)

How can u possibly get gameplay right when u can't get the player models right? Let's think about it for a moment. And I think my theory is accurate because ever since Live's models have been inaccurate(cartoony), their gameplay has been terrible, along with the models. 2k's models look more realistic IMO, and I think no one can argue that 2k has had the better gameplay the last few years. We have only seen a few pics and already there are issues? I am willing to bet it will be the same with the gameplay, as usual. There is obviously a pattern here, terrible player models, terrible gamplay. Yet EA is claiming they are changing the gamplay? But yet we still see the same neglect with the playermodels that have plagued the game for years. You think the gameplay will be better? Do the math.

Let's look at this from a mechanic perspective. If you can't do something as simple as take the wheel off the car without messing up the lugs, then how can you change the break pads? In video game relation, EA is claiming they have improved their work in fixing the break pads, but yet they still can't take the wheel off the car correctly? How about the theory, learn to crawl before u can walk?

You have to have the entire package to create a sim package, not bogus models but then claim u have good gameplay. IMO models and realistic players is part of a good sim package.

There is more good in live 10s player models than bad...if you cant see it thats because thats not what you want to see.. you just want to see the wrong and never the right/good.


btw quick question..have you ever programmed a game before and have you ever created a digital player model...i ask this because i dont think you understand the difficulty of it. I am not here to back up ea, i understand there are some wrongs with the player model... but i also see alot of the good in the new models. peaaceeeeee

[LEGENDoflegends]

Re: problems with Live's player models - my critique (images and examples included)

No, I am not a programmer nor will I pretend to be one. However, somethings are common sense, suck as a forearm being to big, and shoulder's being to large. U don't have to have a programming degree to know that. I'm not a programmer and I can edit models that look way more realistic than what EA is doing.

We are into the 4th and 5th year of the next gen cycle and EA still have awful looking player models? I'm sorry but something is wrong here, and it has nothing to do with difficult or complex programming.

[pbz06]

Re: problems with Live's player models - my critique (images and examples included)

How can u possibly get gameplay right when u can't get the player models right? Let's think about it for a moment. And I think my theory is accurate because ever since Live's models have been inaccurate(cartoony), their gameplay has been terrible, along with the models. 2k's models look more realistic IMO, and I think no one can argue that 2k has had the better gameplay the last few years. We have only seen a few pics and already there are issues? I am willing to bet it will be the same with the gameplay, as usual. There is obviously a pattern here, terrible player models, terrible gamplay. Yet EA is claiming they are changing the gamplay? But yet we still see the same neglect with the playermodels that have plagued the game for years. You think the gameplay will be better? Do the math.

Let's look at this from a mechanic perspective. If you can't do something as simple as take the wheel off the car without messing up the lugs, then how can you change the break pads? In video game relation, EA is claiming they have improved their work in fixing the break pads, but yet they still can't take the wheel off the car correctly? How about the theory, learn to crawl before u can walk?

You have to have the entire package to create a sim package, not bogus models but then claim u have good gameplay. IMO models and realistic players is part of a good sim package.

haha, give me a break man

you already have a predetermined opinion and are justifying it in any way possible

some of your statements are very naive and ignorant, and I don't know where to begin...but I don't think it will matter what I/we will say anyway. You're obviously a _ _ _ LL from that "other" forum

[MarvellousOne]

Re: problems with Live's player models - my critique (images and examples included)

How can u possibly get gameplay right when u can't get the player models right? Let's think about it for a moment. And I think my theory is accurate because ever since Live's models have been inaccurate(cartoony), their gameplay has been terrible, along with the models. 2k's models look more realistic IMO, and I think no one can argue that 2k has had the better gameplay the last few years. We have only seen a few pics and already there are issues? I am willing to bet it will be the same with the gameplay, as usual. There is obviously a pattern here, terrible player models, terrible gamplay. Yet EA is claiming they are changing the gamplay? But yet we still see the same neglect with the playermodels that have plagued the game for years. You think the gameplay will be better? Do the math.

Let's look at this from a mechanic perspective. If you can't do something as simple as take the wheel off the car without messing up the lugs, then how can you change the break pads? In video game relation, EA is claiming they have improved their work in fixing the break pads, but yet they still can't take the wheel off the car correctly? How about the theory, learn to crawl before u can walk?

You have to have the entire package to create a sim package, not bogus models but then claim u have good gameplay. IMO models and realistic players is part of a good sim package.

Your making it seem as if their player models are completely horrible, yes they have flaws but you can make the same assumption from the 2k series although there models are better looking they still have flaws in there design. You can have the best looking car in the world, and it can run like crap,then you can have the ugliest looking car and have better performance out of it than that flashy car everyone salivates over. Visuals are only for eye candy, when talking visuals vs performance I would choose performance all day because that is what counts the most, or at least that's what I thought but I guess not....just my opinion not trying to bash yours or anything though you are entitled to your own.

[LEGENDoflegends]

Re: problems with Live's player models - my critique (images and examples included)

PBZ06, I have a pre-determined opinion? How u figured that? Have u seen the live pics? Its the same issues as before with the player models. WTF is wrong with u? Are u blind, stupid, or both?

[krazyboy225]

Re: problems with Live's player models - my critique (images and examples included)

No, I am not a programmer nor will I pretend to be one. However, somethings are common sense, suck as a forearm being to big, and shoulder's being to large. U don't have to have a programming degree to know that. I'm not a programmer and I can edit models that look way more realistic than what EA is doing.

We are into the 4th and 5th year of the next gen cycle and EA still have awful looking player models? I'm sorry but something is wrong here, and it has nothing to do with difficult or complex programming.

i understand what your sayin but you need to understand that there are a lot more good than bad.

[pbz06]

Re: problems with Live's player models - my critique (images and examples included)

PBZ06, I have a pre-determined opinion? How u figured that? Have u seen the live pics? Its the same issues as before with the player models. WTF is wrong with u? Are u blind, stupid, or both?

OH NOEZ, THE FORE ARMS ARE A TAD TOO LONG!!!! CALL THE PRESS!!!!!!!!!!!!

that means the complete overhaul the new development team has put into the gameplay will all be for nothing, right? All because you don't like the forearm size, and because you said so, LOL.

If you're just going to troll, you might as well leave.

[krazyboy225]

Re: problems with Live's player models - my critique (images and examples included)

no need to result in name calling here.... Btw yes we have seen the pics.. the question is have you seen the size of Bynums legs in live 10 compared to 09 ???

[Dalsanto0026]

Re: problems with Live's player models - my critique (images and examples included)

Pbz06 it would be nice if you didn't resort to name-calling. If you don't agree that's fine, but we can do without the insults thanks.

There's nothing wrong with a little criticism, the problem is there are too many people that are being lenient towards EA. Don't get me wrong, I like what I'm hearing from Steph and Beluba and I hope they achieve their goal, but if the player models don't look realistic then we should call them out for it as they're meant to be striving for an authentic experience. We know gameplay is the most important thing, but why can't we have both? Is that too much to ask? Some people make out like we're nitpicking when we're just passionate about getting a next-gen experience, we're not talking about the PS2 or XBOX versions here.

Don't get the wrong message, I want this game to be good and look forward to seeing gameplay footage to get a better idea of what's in store for us this year.

Cheers

[krazyboy225]

Re: problems with Live's player models - my critique (images and examples included)

Pbz06 it would be nice if you didn't resort to name-calling. If you don't agree that's fine, but we can do without the insults thanks.

There's nothing wrong with a little criticism, the problem is there are too many people that are being lenient towards EA. Don't get me wrong, I like what I'm hearing from Steph and Beluba and I hope they achieve their goal, but if the player models don't look realistic then we should call them out for it as they're meant to be striving for an authentic experience. We know gameplay is the most important thing, but why can't we have both? Is that too much to ask? Some people make out like we're nitpicking when we're just passionate about getting a next-gen experience, we're not talking about the PS2 or XBOX versions here.

Don't get the wrong message, I want this game to be good and look forward to seeing gameplay footage to get a better idea of what's in store for us this year.

Cheers

You are right about calling out the devs when an error is spotted, but it should be done in a constructive and non-ignorant manner... just like the way you are addressing pbz06...you went about it calmly.

[Beluba]

Re: problems with Live's player models - my critique (images and examples included)

i didn't really want to chime in here... but i don't want ryan and co. to get thrown under the bus. believe me when i say that the artists here are incredibly strong, and yes, they understand limb scaling and human anatomy. it's not a trivial task to just re-scale the humerus bone like you use the paintbrush tool in photoshop. even the slightest tweak to our player skeleton would force us to have to re-target every single animation in our game... which is a painful process and would take an animation team a significant amount of time, obviously pulling them away from doing other important tasks. we have a finite amount of time to take on as much as we possibly can in a dev cycle, and it's always a challenge for us to pick our battles.

not trying to make excuses for any shortcomings you guys are seeing in the screenshots... just wanted to shed some light on the reality of where we are. I think the visuals in Live 10 are leaps and bounds better than previous titles. And as I play the game every day, I never find myself taken out of the experience because of bad art... which is something I can't say is true of the past few years of Live. We all appreciate the feedback and I'm always amazed at the level of detail you guys scrutinize. Just know that most of it is probably not news to us.

[RayDog253]

Re: problems with Live's player models - my critique (images and examples included)

Makes sense. The whole throwing off every animation thing, i could understand that. Me personally just cant wait to play the finished product in October.