NBA Elite 11 Video: Exclusive Shooting Fundamentals Developer Diary

[thomonkey]

Re: NBA Elite 11 Video: Exclusive Shooting Fundamentals Developer Diary

i feel strongly that early release should make the ball go along and late release should make the ball go short. it just doesn't make sense for the ball to go long if you hang more. any great shooter knows you should release on your way up and if you hang you will be more likely to shoot short. just watching the video it really looked silly how the player was hanging so long yet shot the shot long. if you keep it this way when my friend shoots short i will have to tell him that he needs to hang more on his shot. im sure he'll give me a wtf face. this definitely needs to be changed and i don't think people will be confused about this system. people are not that dumb. you guys are going for authenticity and hanging making the ball go long is definitely not authentic. it really looked silly, and i have loved everything i have seen about this game. i definitely WILL NOT enjoy shooting if you don't change this. it is so the opposite of real life that i cant comprehend how you guys decided hanging makes the ball go long.

[Da-Man]

Re: NBA Elite 11 Video: Exclusive Shooting Fundamentals Developer Diary

Is there a way to influence the arc of your shot if your defender is really close as opposed to a wide open set shot?

[fluent2332]

Re: NBA Elite 11 Video: Exclusive Shooting Fundamentals Developer Diary

It doesn't play into your mind because you've trained your body to release the ball at the appropriate speed based on how far away you are, and many other factors.

But when you do make a mistake, and you throw it long, or a little to the left, often times you know that you've done it the instant it leaves your hands.

This is the feeling we're trying to replicate with Elite. You'll get into a rhythm, feel the timing of the shot (not think about it) and know that you've made a mistake before the game shows you that it's happened.

I hear what you're saying about the timing of the release. We've chosen to simulate the power and angle of the shot using the mechanics described in the video. That does add timing elements to the game that don't necessarily exist in real life (it does to some degree, but like you said in real life you can compensate).

Hopefully you enjoy it and agree with the decisions we made when you try it out, but understand that there are trade offs that have to be made when building a game.

So if a defender is closing fast on me and I want to quickly pop a 3 before he gets there, I am going to leave it short every time because I didn't hit the perfect release? How about stopping on a dime for a quick J, or a floater, or countless other examples of when you try to catch the D off-guard with different timings. It seems as though the game is only going to play at one speed, which will leave the lesser teams in the dust because they can't compensate.

Couldn't the sweet spot react differently based on the defense, the situation, etc? Not just get bigger/smaller, but get quicker/longer based on what's happening on the court? I dunno. One of my favorite parts of Live 10 was rhythm based shooting. Catching a bad pass but taking your time to gather, take one dribble and step into a 3. You would have to hold the release a little longer maybe to get yourself back into balance.

I see what you are saying about tradeoffs when you allow full control as such, but I'm wondering how you can replicate the real NBA and players who use timing so heavily like Steph Curry, Steve Nash, most of the GSW (who compensate for lack of athleticism etc with timing-based play), and many others.

[thomonkey]

Re: NBA Elite 11 Video: Exclusive Shooting Fundamentals Developer Diary

ok also, when people shoot a half court shot do they hang to get more distance on their shot?
NO WAY. not even the dumbest NBA player would think to hang more on a half court shot. if you give the ball to a random person and tell them to shoot a half courter they definitely will not hang in the air. they are going to release VERY EARLY and get their body into it. i guarantee that reviewers will mention how shooting feels weird unless you change this.

[rEAnimator]

Re: NBA Elite 11 Video: Exclusive Shooting Fundamentals Developer Diary

So if a defender is closing fast on me and I want to quickly pop a 3 before he gets there, I am going to leave it short every time because I didn't hit the perfect release? How about stopping on a dime for a quick J, or a floater, or countless other examples of when you try to catch the D off-guard with different timings. It seems as though the game is only going to play at one speed, which will leave the lesser teams in the dust because they can't compensate.

Couldn't the sweet spot react differently based on the defense, the situation, etc? Not just get bigger/smaller, but get quicker/longer based on what's happening on the court? I dunno. One of my favorite parts of Live 10 was rhythm based shooting. Catching a bad pass but taking your time to gather, take one dribble and step into a 3. You would have to hold the release a little longer maybe to get yourself back into balance.

I see what you are saying about tradeoffs when you allow full control as such, but I'm wondering how you can replicate the real NBA and players who use timing so heavily like Steph Curry, Steve Nash, most of the GSW (who compensate for lack of athleticism etc with timing-based play), and many others.

If a defender is closing fast on you and you want to pop a quick 3, you can. As you said it may come up short though.

But if your player is a good 3pt shooter, and you know that and have practiced with him, you'll know that his sweet spot start earlier as well. So you'll know exactly how early you can release and still get the shot far enough.

This is realistic because getting off an early shot will throw you off your rhythm and make the shot less likely to go in.

Same applies here, releasing the ball early will result in a shot that is less likely to succeed. But with a good shooter, the range will be bigger and you'll be able to release early and still get the range you're after.

[TreyIM2]

rEAnimator - I liked the quick floater and the idea of the turn around jumper. Everything else I was already aware of. However, if you guys are going to continue to make more promotional vids and talk about this game, please stop saying that "It is now possible to bank shots" as if it is actually new to this franchise. Live 10 had bank shots.

[rEAnimator]

Re: NBA Elite 11 Video: Exclusive Shooting Fundamentals Developer Diary

rEAnimator - I liked the quick floater and the idea of the turn around jumper. Everything else I was already aware of. However, if you guys are going to continue to make more promotional vids and talk about this game, please stop saying that "It is now possible to bank shots" as if it is actually new to this franchise. Live 10 had bank shots.

I think what they mean to say is that it is now possible to choose to do a bank shot, from anywhere on the court at anytime, and precisely control the direction and power of the bank shot.

That is something that wasn't in Live 10, and I don't think has been in any basketball game.

But I agree, the way it's worded opens the door for a misunderstanding.

[ParisB]

Re: NBA Elite 11 Video: Exclusive Shooting Fundamentals Developer Diary

So if a defender is closing fast on me and I want to quickly pop a 3 before he gets there, I am going to leave it short every time because I didn't hit the perfect release? How about stopping on a dime for a quick J, or a floater, or countless other examples of when you try to catch the D off-guard with different timings. It seems as though the game is only going to play at one speed, which will leave the lesser teams in the dust because they can't compensate.

Couldn't the sweet spot react differently based on the defense, the situation, etc? Not just get bigger/smaller, but get quicker/longer based on what's happening on the court? I dunno. One of my favorite parts of Live 10 was rhythm based shooting. Catching a bad pass but taking your time to gather, take one dribble and step into a 3. You would have to hold the release a little longer maybe to get yourself back into balance.

I see what you are saying about tradeoffs when you allow full control as such, but I'm wondering how you can replicate the real NBA and players who use timing so heavily like Steph Curry, Steve Nash, most of the GSW (who compensate for lack of athleticism etc with timing-based play), and many others.

It seems right to me. If you have to "quickly" get the shot up, your timing will be off in real life too and it will be a lower percentage shot. I don't understand what the problem is here.

Whether a defender is closing in or not, a player maintains his normal shooting form. They usually know if they have enough space to get it off. The User has to make the same decision. Is there just enough space to get the shot off? Yes? Shoot. No? pump fake or get blocked.

see from 1:13 on

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eIhRaCyWOAA

[ParisB]

Re: NBA Elite 11 Video: Exclusive Shooting Fundamentals Developer Diary

I agree with you on the shot power thing. We've had this discussion amongst the dev team about the power meter.

Basically, an early release in real life should result in a lower powered shot. A late release in real life should result in a lower powered shot.

However, people who play video games are trained to think of a power meter as just that. The longer you charge the power, the more power you'll get.

Unfortunately these two ideas conflict.

We've focus tested the two and for now the power meter remains as it is in the video. If you feel strongly about it one way or the other, voice your opinions, post a poll, make it known how you feel.

The game isn't done yet so it is possible to have an influence.

I cannot promise anything will change, but if you feel strongly about it you should make that known.

We are listening.

I agree with the power meter mentality, it will work best that way as a video game...but is there a way of tweaking the animation to not get it off on the way down? or at least so it's not so obvious? it does look a bit on the silly side...

[YoungG]

Re: NBA Elite 11 Video: Exclusive Shooting Fundamentals Developer Diary

this is all positives and im happy that elite 11 will have total control. It'll be interesting to play it when the demo drops

[fluent2332]

Re: NBA Elite 11 Video: Exclusive Shooting Fundamentals Developer Diary

If a defender is closing fast on you and you want to pop a quick 3, you can. As you said it may come up short though.

But if your player is a good 3pt shooter, and you know that and have practiced with him, you'll know that his sweet spot start earlier as well. So you'll know exactly how early you can release and still get the shot far enough.

This is realistic because getting off an early shot will throw you off your rhythm and make the shot less likely to go in.

Same applies here, releasing the ball early will result in a shot that is less likely to succeed. But with a good shooter, the range will be bigger and you'll be able to release early and still get the range you're after.

Isn't your rhythm directly related to how quick or long your release is?

If we are running and gunning down the court, my release on an Anthony Morrow 3 might be lightning quick, whereas in a half-court, slower set, I may sit down on my shot more. Think Stephen Jackson - his release varies depending on what's happening on the court. So maybe the sweet spot should be directly related to the rhythm at which you are playing.

I was one of the few who thought Live 10 was a great game, and I also play in real life, and felt I could pull off similar moves in Live 10. But on top of that I would urge you guys to take a look at the situations I described. I think the way the control is set up right now, it seems to take an elementary approach when a more complex system is needed. Just my 2 cents.

It seems right to me. If you have to "quickly" get the shot up, your timing will be off in real life too and it will be a lower percentage shot. I don't understand what the problem is here.

Whether a defender is closing in or not, a player maintains his normal shooting form. They usually know if they have enough space to get it off.

It's difficult to explain, but it's not as cut and dry as that. Sure players maintain their form but there is an ever so subtle difference based on the defense. Just because you used a quick release (see: Steph Curry coming off a screen vs. Steph Curry with all day to shoot), doesn't necessarily mean the shot will be lower percentage, not if you have outstanding touch like a lot of NBA players do. Shooting to me is a situation based/dynamic thing, and release points and timing change from play to play. Even if it's milliseconds difference, you can still feel it. High arcing shots like Curry/Nash and others use all utilize a quick flick type of release.

That said though the game still looks fun as hell and I can't wait to try it . And props to you guys for getting so hands on with the forums during this process.

[rEAnimator]

Re: NBA Elite 11 Video: Exclusive Shooting Fundamentals Developer Diary

I agree with the power meter mentality, it will work best that way as a video game...but is there a way of tweaking the animation to not get it off on the way down? or at least so it's not so obvious? it does look a bit on the silly side...

Yes, there is a way.

We actually had that setup prior to E3 to make the shots look more realistic, but then removed it last minute because new users found the timing harder to get used to.

We're looking at trying to tune the timing windows so that the best looking shot (ie releasing the stick a little before the peak of the jump) and the best release point (releasing the stick at the peak of the jump) both result in successful shots from a reasonable shooting range.

But as I've said this is a balancing act for us. We're aware of what's causing the shot timing to look off, and we're working to fix that while preserving the feel.

Remember that you've only got half the picture by watching the videos.

You haven't experienced the feel yet so you don't know what benefits the choice we've made gives you yet.

So I completely understand your guys perspective after watching the video, but understand that your perspective might change after trying the demo.

We don't want to make snap reactions based on feedback on the video if it has a negative affect on the feel without seriously considering it first.

Hope that helps.

[ParisB]

Re: NBA Elite 11 Video: Exclusive Shooting Fundamentals Developer Diary

Isn't your rhythm directly related to how quick or long your release is?

If we are running and gunning down the court, my release on an Anthony Morrow 3 might be lightning quick, whereas in a half-court, slower set, I may sit down on my shot more. Think Stephen Jackson - his release varies depending on what's happening on the court. So maybe the sweet spot should be directly related to the rhythm at which you are playing.

I was one of the few who thought Live 10 was a great game, and I also play in real life, and felt I could pull off similar moves in Live 10. But on top of that I would urge you guys to take a look at the situations I described. I think the way the control is set up right now, it seems to take an elementary approach when a more complex system is needed. Just my 2 cents.

It's difficult to explain, but it's not as cut and dry as that. Sure players maintain their form but there is an ever so subtle difference based on the defense. Just because you used a quick release (see: Steph Curry coming off a screen vs. Steph Curry with all day to shoot), doesn't necessarily mean the shot will be lower percentage, not if you have outstanding touch like a lot of NBA players do. Shooting to me is a situation based/dynamic thing, and release points and timing change from play to play. Even if it's milliseconds difference, you can still feel it. High arcing shots like Curry/Nash and others use all utilize a quick flick type of release.

That said though the game still looks fun as hell and I can't wait to try it . And props to you guys for getting so hands on with the forums during this process.

guys with quick releases (in their natural form) will be reflected correctly, from what i've read. Ray Allen has a quick release in real life, and his sweet spot timing in the game should be achieved quicker (as in to get to the top of his release point).

I think you're worried that every player will have the same jump and timing.

[P-Dub]

Re: NBA Elite 11 Video: Exclusive Shooting Fundamentals Developer Diary

Is there a way to influence the arc of your shot if your defender is really close as opposed to a wide open set shot?

This is important, imo. The shot trajectories in the video were very flat. I think the shots would look better if their peak was at least the top of the backboard. Also, an idea for changing your arc could be by pressing up on the left stick while shooting.

If a defender is closing fast on you and you want to pop a quick 3, you can. As you said it may come up short though.

But if your player is a good 3pt shooter, and you know that and have practiced with him, you'll know that his sweet spot start earlier as well. So you'll know exactly how early you can release and still get the shot far enough.

This is realistic because getting off an early shot will throw you off your rhythm and make the shot less likely to go in.

Same applies here, releasing the ball early will result in a shot that is less likely to succeed. But with a good shooter, the range will be bigger and you'll be able to release early and still get the range you're after.

Some players have more of a set shot that they can get off quicker, rather than a jumpshot. Will there be a way of manually performing this type of shot, with a modifier, perhaps? Or will it just be up to that players sig shot.

I agree with the power meter mentality, it will work best that way as a video game...but is there a way of tweaking the animation to not get it off on the way down? or at least so it's not so obvious? it does look a bit on the silly side...

Completely agree. I think a modifier button while in air or even choosing the angle with the left stick while still releasing the right stick at the sweet spot moment would be better than releasing on the way down to provide the extra power. That might conflict with running or fading shots, though.

What about pushing the right stick up, and then curling it to the side to trigger a bank? How straight the stick is pushed up initially would determine the angle.

Maybe if they implemented the possibility to change the arc of the shot, then they could also use that to trigger a bank shot by pushing the left stick at an angle while in air.

Could just use the layup motion from beyond a certain distance, with the right stick being held at the proper angle to make the bank.

[thomonkey]

Re: NBA Elite 11 Video: Exclusive Shooting Fundamentals Developer Diary

Yes, there is a way.

We actually had that setup prior to E3 to make the shots look more realistic, but then removed it last minute because new users found the timing harder to get used to.

We're looking at trying to tune the timing windows so that the best looking shot (ie releasing the stick a little before the peak of the jump) and the best release point (releasing the stick at the peak of the jump) both result in successful shots from a reasonable shooting range.

But as I've said this is a balancing act for us. We're aware of what's causing the shot timing to look off, and we're working to fix that while preserving the feel.

Remember that you've only got half the picture by watching the videos.

You haven't experienced the feel yet so you don't know what benefits the choice we've made gives you yet.

So I completely understand your guys perspective after watching the video, but understand that your perspective might change after trying the demo.

We don't want to make snap reactions based on feedback on the video if it has a negative affect on the feel without seriously considering it first.

Hope that helps.

why not make the best looking shot also the best release point? i think that its going to be very confusing when you release a shot that looks perfect but its an early release. the perfect release point should definitely be the best looking shot even if that is a little before the peak of the jump. In real life the best release point is while you are going up not at the peak of your jump so i think you should definitely make the perfect release point be the same as the best looking shot.

thanks