Shaq vs Tim Duncan

[ex carrabba fan]

Re: Shaq vs Tim Duncan

Ive addressed this. He should have improved is FT shooting and expanded his range around the basket. Without this comparing him to the other great big men is a joke. All the others were functional within a 7 foot radius of the basket. Shaqs has to be right at the basket. And besides, a significant amount of his points came after he should have been called for a blatant charge. Yeah, guys would foul him but only after he charged his way to the basket with that big a$$ of his. So he is basically reliant on the officials to not call a foul a foul. But yeah, there was a lot of turnover in the league which allowed Shaq and the Lakers to step into the fold. Its not like Shaqs Lakers went through anyone to win a title the way the 80s Lakers, Pistons or 90s Bulls had. But I guess if your big and unpolished it pays to wait around for guys to retire, eh?

So basically because he can't hit perimeter jump shots his game hasn't evolved? Because he didn't improve FT shooting he hasn't evolved? He isn't a guard! He isn't even a forward. Why in God's name would you ask him to step away from the basket when NOBODY on the planet could stop him from getting high percentage shots.

Some people don't get it! You don't ask Dirk to post up, and you CERTAINLY don't ask Shaq to step away from the basket and take jumpers.

[teebone]

Re: Shaq vs Tim Duncan

So basically because he can't hit perimeter jump shots his game hasn't evolved?

Thats not what I said. I said he cant even hit shots 7 feet away which is a long way from the perimeter.

Because he didn't improve FT shooting he hasn't evolved? He isn't a guard! He isn't even a forward.

He plays close to the basket, no? Theres a decent chance he will get fouled down on the blocks. You see, the closer you are to the basket, the greater the chance of making a basket typically. And since these are easier shots, the other team is more apt to foul.

Why in God's name would you ask him to step away from the basket when NOBODY on the planet could stop him from getting high percentage shots.

I wouldnt call a 7' radius stepping away from the basket. Its still basically in the paint and it would allow him to not rely on the officials to ignore his numerous charging fouls.

Some people don't get it! You don't ask Dirk to post up, and you CERTAINLY don't ask Shaq to step away from the basket and take jumpers.

Dirk actually was backing guys down in the playoffs and up until the finals the playoffs last year Dirk had never been better. He would back his guy down when he had the advantage and he would take it outside too. Doing both made him a better player but thats Dirk. Shaq doesnt have Dirks range but he should still at least have developed a shot at close range.

[billmatic]

Re: Shaq vs Tim Duncan

lol @ the last 2 pages of this thread.

Saying Shaq's game hasn't evolved since his second year in the league is beyond ignorant. Every phase of his game has improved. He used to just dunk it all day long, and if he couldn't do that, he was done. He developed numerous low post moves, a (very) short jumper, mini hook, passing game, better feel for double teams, etc.

And spare the bit about the constant charging fouls. He gets more fouls against him not called than any player in the league, it works both ways.

[X*Cell]

Re: Shaq vs Tim Duncan

Not to mention he was unbelievably quick. A lot of those spins in the lane were hard to stop because of the combination of his size and the fact that he could beat the defender with one drop step to the basket. He is an extremely talented player, and I agree with Carraba... asking him to step out is just pointless. The guy shot nearly 60% from the field every year. Why would you want that to drop?

[teebone]

Re: Shaq vs Tim Duncan

lol @ the last 2 pages of this thread.

Saying Shaq's game hasn't evolved since his second year in the league is beyond ignorant. Every phase of his game has improved. He used to just dunk it all day long, and if he couldn't do that, he was done. He developed numerous low post moves, a (very) short jumper, mini hook, passing game, better feel for double teams, etc.

And spare the bit about the constant charging fouls. He gets more fouls against him not called than any player in the league, it works both ways.

Yeah, most of the calls he complains about take place after he has fouled his way to the basket and his defender has no choice but to foul. And his "numerous low post moves" go into effect after the fouls allow him to be close enough too. And like I said, his jumper has a range of like 3 feet. Like I said before, his passing game is what has evolved but thats basically it.

[billmatic]

Re: Shaq vs Tim Duncan

lol, ok man, you believe whatever nonsense you want to.

[teebone]

Re: Shaq vs Tim Duncan

lol, ok man, you believe whatever nonsense you want to.

I will, Jack Ramsey.

[Vince]

Re: Shaq vs Tim Duncan

Yep yep and yep. These guys had very similair games. Had a guy like Daugherty played on the Spurs with that team in that time period he would've had similar hardware and accolades. Duncan on the Cavs in the late 80's early 90's would've been Brad Daughter.

Shaq dominates in any era. There's your difference.

It's all hypothetical.

[Mo_Magic]

Re: Shaq vs Tim Duncan

Thats not what I said. I said he cant even hit shots 7 feet away which is a long way from the perimeter.

He plays close to the basket, no? Theres a decent chance he will get fouled down on the blocks. You see, the closer you are to the basket, the greater the chance of making a basket typically. And since these are easier shots, the other team is more apt to foul.



I wouldnt call a 7' radius stepping away from the basket. Its still basically in the paint and it would allow him to not rely on the officials to ignore his numerous charging fouls.


Dirk actually was backing guys down in the playoffs and up until the finals the playoffs last year Dirk had never been better. He would back his guy down when he had the advantage and he would take it outside too. Doing both made him a better player but thats Dirk. Shaq doesnt have Dirks range but he should still at least have developed a shot at close range.

I'm not trying to be rude, but are you insane? You're saying a career 60%shooter should stop doing what makes him great? Why in the hell would you want a 60% career shooting center to develop a jumpshot? Shaqs game has evolved. He went from being a rookie that would get schooled by Hakeem Olajuwon(a close 2nd to Shaq at the position imo). To dominating the ENTIRE LEAGUE. NOBODY CAN, OR COULD STOP HIM. So why would you want to fix what isn't broken. Making Shaq develop a jumpshot is like making Ray Allen develop a power postup game.

I'm sorry, but your argument lacks ALL logic. Who cares if he doesn't have a jumper outside seven feet? Five feet, seven feet, three feet, what's the difference? Shaq dominated everything in the paint. Ok, charging? Did you forget the man has been 330+ pounds his ENTIRE career(some years even tipping 360)? When you get posted up by a 7' 330-360 pound, it's going to look like a charge. That's like a freaking semi backing into a pickup.

[teebone]

Re: Shaq vs Tim Duncan

I'm not trying to be rude, but are you insane? You're saying a career 60%shooter should stop doing what makes him great?

And that would be fouling his way to within 2 feet of the basket by backing guys down (who have position) with his big ***. He is 60% because they have ignored the rules and tolerated him charging his way to the basket.

Why in the hell would you want a 60% career shooting center to develop a jumpshot?

See my comment above. If he cant legitimately make his way to the basket (ie without fouling) then he should develop a jump shot.

Shaqs game has evolved. He went from being a rookie that would get schooled by Hakeem Olajuwon(a close 2nd to Shaq at the position imo). To dominating the ENTIRE LEAGUE. NOBODY CAN, OR COULD STOP HIM. So why would you want to fix what isn't broken.

And at what stage in their careers were Olajuwon, Ewing and Jordan when Shaq suddenly became dominant? Its no coincidence that it was when they were in their final stages or retired.

Making Shaq develop a jumpshot is like making Ray Allen develop a power postup game.

No, its more like asking Dirk to go to the basket which he did and this got them to the NBA Finals. Prior to the NBA Finals many people were commenting about that being the best Dirk had ever played. He was absolutely outstanding once he started doing both.

I'm sorry, but your argument lacks ALL logic. Who cares if he doesn't have a jumper outside seven feet? Five feet, seven feet, three feet, what's the difference? Shaq dominated everything in the paint. Ok, charging? Did you forget the man has been 330+ pounds his ENTIRE career(some years even tipping 360)? When you get posted up by a 7' 330-360 pound, it's going to look like a charge. That's like a freaking semi backing into a pickup.

It looks worse when its a guy that big but when you have position and someone rams into you, thats a charge by defintion regardless of whether Shaq or Brevin Knight who is the offender. And yeah, its more obvious when Shaq does it but its still a charge.

[X*Cell]

Re: Shaq vs Tim Duncan

And that would be fouling his way to within 2 feet of the basket by backing guys down (who have position) with his big ***. He is 60% because they have ignored the rules and tolerated him charging his way to the basket.

That is the whole point to posting up, to back your way in for an easier shot. This is why there is a 5-second limit on posting up, so players can't just use a full 24-second shot clock to do it. Just because a defensive player has good position, doesn't mean that someone shouldn't be able to back their *** down. Otherwise you could make a PG guard a C with no consequence. How is it fouling at all? He had girth, and noone else did. That is exploiting a strength, which makes Shaq all that better. How come guys like Priest Lauderdale, John Williams, or Oliver Miller come into the NBA and dominate like Shaq?

[ehh]

Re: Shaq vs Tim Duncan

Personally I don't buy the Duncan vs. Dougherty comparison.

I don't know if it's because Duncan makes it look so easy that people question his talent and ability, but Tim Duncan was going to be a great player regardless of if he played in the 80's or not. You can't fault a player for playing in the era they did. Also, who cares if his moves are simple or not? He doesn't need a Dream Shake or a Sky Hook to get his buckets near the hoop. Does that degrade his greatness? It doesn't in my eyes. He gets the job done, I don't care if he heads the ball into the hoop.

But as others have said, he wasn't going to be a multiple-time MVP. I don't think you can deny that the overall talent in the NBA was better back then. Magic, Bird, Jordan, Zeke, etc. I don't feel you can compare if he'd win NBA titles in the 80's cause who the heck knows who would have been his supporting cast back then, but I do think if he had a good enough supporting cast he'd have his team competiting for an NBA title year in and year out.

[teebone]

Re: Shaq vs Tim Duncan

That is the whole point to posting up, to back your way in for an easier shot. This is why there is a 5-second limit on posting up, so players can't just use a full 24-second shot clock to do it. Just because a defensive player has good position, doesn't mean that someone shouldn't be able to back their *** down. Otherwise you could make a PG guard a C with no consequence. How is it fouling at all? He had girth, and noone else did. That is exploiting a strength, which makes Shaq all that better. How come guys like Priest Lauderdale, John Williams, or Oliver Miller come into the NBA and dominate like Shaq?

If you occupy a spot and have both feet planted and the offensive player runs into you, its a foul provided your feet were planted prior to the offensive player leaving his feet (but that doesnt really apply when backing someone down. If you do a drop step and go around the guy you are OK provided you dont barge into the defender and dont hook him with an elbow.

[702]

Re: Shaq vs Tim Duncan

It's basketball not ballet.

[teebone]

Re: Shaq vs Tim Duncan

It's basketball not ballet.

Its basketball not football or sumo wrestling.