The transformation of Kobe Bryant

[HMcCoy]

Re: The transformation of Kobe Bryant

It's just pretty funny that a lot of these same Kobe fans (including you) a few years ago were saying "Yeah! Kobe's doing what he has to do! He needs to shoot more, he's doing what's necessary!" and now, when he starts to play differently, you're praising him for this new style of play (which has lasted for about 15-20 games). Pick a side and stick with it.

Not me, bro...I've always said the same things. Kobe needed to get a few total greenlight seasons out of his system, to sow his wild oats after being in Shaq's shadow. I've never said thats the way to win, or thats what the Lakers needed, but only that Kobe deserved a chance to spray the league ala AI for awhile after deferring his way to 3 World Championships. Folks act like Kobe's been jacking shots his entire career...this current play is pretty much how he played for close to a decade with O'Neal. I honestly thought he would go nuts for more than 2 seasons...but it looks like he's gotten back to the system that helped make him.

Anywho, wouldn't it live as hell to listen in to those conversations between Kobe and His Airness?...to hear the old master give the youngin' advice on getting to that next level? At 28, Kobe should just be entering his prime...think about that.

[Brankles]

Re: The transformation of Kobe Bryant

Yes because clearly Shaq had nothing to do with. While I agree to assign Kobe a large share of the blame, I don't think he deserves all of it. He was in a screwed position no matter what he did. If he stayed with Shaq then his all life he would have heard how he only won because of Shaq which is what everyone on this board says a lot. Besides he wasn't the one who requested to be traded. Not thats not to say Kobe doesn't have any faults, but i find it hard to believe that people interpret Kobes drive as selfishness yet T-Mac's supposed complacency as him being a team player.

Oh... How's the Wade and Shaq thing going along? Last I heard, Shaq was taking him out to clubs and both got along great. Never heard any stories about Kobe being buddies with his teammates, or any of the important ones, at least.

And why is Kobe wanting to shoot the ball every time he touches it considered "drive" or "killer instinct" and TMac passing the ball to teammates considered "complacency" or "lack of desire"?

That "drive" thing cracks me up everytime I hear it.

[Brankles]

Re: The transformation of Kobe Bryant

Not me, bro...I've always said the same things. Kobe needed to get a few total greenlight seasons out of his system, to sow his wild oats after being in Shaq's shadow. I've never said thats the way to win, or thats what the Lakers needed, but only that Kobe deserved a chance to spray the league ala AI for awhile after deferring his way to 3 World Championships. Folks act like Kobe's been jacking shots his entire career...this current play is pretty much how he played for close to a decade with O'Neal. I honestly thought he would go nuts for more than 2 seasons...but it looks like he's gotten back to the system that helped make him.

Anywho, wouldn't it live as hell to listen in to those conversations between Kobe and His Airness?...to hear the old master give the youngin' advice on getting to that next level? At 28, Kobe should just be entering his prime...think about that.

Cool, man.

[ex carrabba fan]

Re: The transformation of Kobe Bryant

I don't know why you're equating Bryant's supposed desire to "shoot everytime" to Bryant's supposed "killer intstinct", but he's hit huge shots in huge playoff games.

[sroz39]

Re: The transformation of Kobe Bryant

Oh... How's the Wade and Shaq thing going along? Last I heard, Shaq was taking him out to clubs and both got along great. Never heard any stories about Kobe being buddies with his teammates, or any of the important ones, at least.

And why is Kobe wanting to shoot the ball every time he touches it considered "drive" or "killer instinct" and TMac passing the ball to teammates considered "complacency" or "lack of desire"?

That "drive" thing cracks me up everytime I hear it.

To be fair, Shaq is now at a different age than when the Lakers' run started. He is not the same player and deep down knows he needs to defer to someone at this point in his career.

We could go back and forth forever and ever arguing about the same things. I personally love Tmac as well, but he too was jacking up shots for a few seasons and playing lacadaisical defence. The reality is that all these players mature at different times. For all the great things Arenas is doing, he too will have to defer a little more if he wants his team to take the next step and become a true contender.

I just can't hate on a guy like Kobe even though I'd love to. I respect hard work in a league where it's at a premium among the superstars. When a Tyrus Thomas says what he said in the manner he did, it makes me appreciate the Kobes, Lebrons and D-Wades that much more.

[Brankles]

Re: The transformation of Kobe Bryant

I don't know why you're equating Bryant's supposed desire to "shoot everytime" to Bryant's supposed "killer intstinct", but he's hit huge shots in huge playoff games.

Awesome. That has nothing to do with what I just said.

[Streets]

Re: The transformation of Kobe Bryant

It's just pretty funny that a lot of these same Kobe fans (including you) a few years ago were saying "Yeah! Kobe's doing what he has to do! He needs to shoot more, he's doing what's necessary!" and now, when he starts to play differently, you're praising him for this new style of play (which has lasted for about 15-20 games). Pick a side and stick with it.

That's been my #1 complaint of alot of Kobe fans. Last year people were defending Kobe's play saying he has no other alternative, his teammates suck, etc. This year, he has the SAME teammates, is actually passing to them, and look what's happening. I see alot of the alleged "haters" coming around now that Kobe has changed his ways (even I give the guy props), but the fanboys still don't change. They maintain that Kobe was in the right last season, eventhough everything this season contradicts that.

Not me, bro...I've always said the same things. Kobe needed to get a few total greenlight seasons out of his system, to sow his wild oats after being in Shaq's shadow. I've never said thats the way to win, or thats what the Lakers needed, but only that Kobe deserved a chance to spray the league ala AI for awhile after deferring his way to 3 World Championships. Folks act like Kobe's been jacking shots his entire career...this current play is pretty much how he played for close to a decade with O'Neal. I honestly thought he would go nuts for more than 2 seasons...but it looks like he's gotten back to the system that helped make him.

Now, this I entirely disagree with. Kobe deserves a chance to spray the league?? Wtf? Just because the guy was second bananna for three championships, it does not give him the right to do anything, but what is most beneficial to his team. Not himself. Too many basketball players have an ego and a sense of entitlement as it is, and I don't think Kobe of all people deserves anything. Yeah, screw his teammates, the zenmaster, and the organization for a couple of years, Kobe needs to get his, because the poor guy hasn't had a chance to really be selfish. Please. Luckily, (or unluckily if you are a fan of any other team sans the Lakers), Kobe is changing his ways and playing with his team rather than saying "I deserve to shoot 100 shots a game and ignore my teammates".

[Brankles]

Re: The transformation of Kobe Bryant

To be fair, Shaq is now at a different age than when the Lakers' run started. He is not the same player and deep down knows he needs to defer to someone at this point in his career.

We could go back and forth forever and ever arguing about the same things. I personally love Tmac as well, but he too was jacking up shots for a few seasons and playing lacadaisical defence. The reality is that all these players mature at different times. For all the great things Arenas is doing, he too will have to defer a little more if he wants his team to take the next step and become a true contender.

I just can't hate on a guy like Kobe even though I'd love to. I respect hard work in a league where it's at a premium among the superstars. When a Tyrus Thomas says what he said in the manner he did, it makes me appreciate the Kobes, Lebrons and D-Wades that much more.

I understand where you're coming from, you have to respect this guy's talent even if you don't like his personality or style of play... which I don't.

I also think a lot of people overrate him, which could be a reason I like debating about him. I think he's a great player, just not nearly as great as many make him out to be.

[Brankles]

Re: The transformation of Kobe Bryant

Now, this I entirely disagree with. Kobe deserves a chance to spray the league?? Wtf? Just because the guy was second bananna for three championships, it does not give him the right to do anything, but what is most beneficial to his team. Not himself. Too many basketball players have an ego and a sense of entitlement as it is, and I don't think Kobe of all people deserves anything. Yeah, screw his teammates, the zenmaster, and the organization for a couple of years, Kobe needs to get his, because the poor guy hasn't had a chance to really be selfish. Please. Luckily, (or unluckily if you are a fan of any other team sans the Lakers), Kobe is changing his ways and playing with his team rather than saying "I deserve to shoot 100 shots a game and ignore my teammates".

I didn't bother responding to that foolishness... and I'm glad you did. Perfectly said.

Funny thing about those two seasons he "sprayed" the league... I don't think many people appreciated him much more (besides that 81 point game) than they did before. If anything, people realized the flaws in his play style (besides Kobe Crusaders) and I guess Kobe saw those flaws as well. I just thought a player with his accomplishments and experience would realize it a season and a half sooner.

[nkhera1]

Re: The transformation of Kobe Bryant

Oh... How's the Wade and Shaq thing going along? Last I heard, Shaq was taking him out to clubs and both got along great. Never heard any stories about Kobe being buddies with his teammates, or any of the important ones, at least.

And why is Kobe wanting to shoot the ball every time he touches it considered "drive" or "killer instinct" and TMac passing the ball to teammates considered "complacency" or "lack of desire"?

That "drive" thing cracks me up everytime I hear it.

Shaq himself said he is doing things differently this time so he doens't make hte same mistakes. He admmited to taking him out and developing a relationship, something he never even tried with kobe. Besides which one of kobe's teammates has said anything bad about him. I've heard pretty good stuff about him.

I also added the t-mac complacency line on purpose to see your reaction, and its just as i expected. What it goes to show is that you see things the way you want to see them and nothing is really going to change your mind. To you it make look as if kobe is selfish me-first orientated person; whereas, to his supporters he is a player just wanting to do everything he can to win. Yet using that same logic it can be argued that T-Mac is a complacent player who is not willing to do everything it takes to get to the best by his detractors; whereas, his supporters will argue he is a team player. Bottom line is your not going to chance your opinion on him no matter what he does so there is really no point debating it with you. Now I'm not saying you are wrong, but I was just trying to show you that there are many ways to interpret something (it is not my intention to give you some kind of moralistic teaching or anything like that, I was just using this to empasize me point, and yes I did use the word complacency on purpose becuase of its negative connotation).

[ex carrabba fan]

Re: The transformation of Kobe Bryant

That's the way it should be though.. If Bryant is truly as good as some lead on to be then he should be able to lead his team to some playoff success and then a title. I don't know why Bryant doubters or people who think he's overrated would think any differently until he leads his team to something significant besides a playoff birth.

[Brankles]

Re: The transformation of Kobe Bryant

Shaq himself said he is doing things differently this time so he doens't make hte same mistakes. He admmited to taking him out and developing a relationship, something he never even tried with kobe. Besides which one of kobe's teammates has said anything bad about him. I've heard pretty good stuff about him.

I've heard stories of Kobe sitting on the team bus/planes on the way to games, completely isolated and not very friendly towards his teammates. I remember his teammates saying they were afraid to get near him or even talk to him. The guy is not a lovable, huggable, shoulder-to-cry on teammate or leader. Many a player/coach has had something negative to say about Kobe Bryant.

I also added the t-mac complacency line on purpose to see your reaction, and its just as i expected. What it goes to show is that you see things the way you want to see them and nothing is really going to change your mind. To you it make look as if kobe is selfish me-first orientated person; whereas, to his supporters he is a player just wanting to do everything he can to win. Yet using that same logic it can be argued that T-Mac is a complacent player who is not willing to do everything it takes to get to the best by his detractors; whereas, his supporters will argue he is a team player. Bottom line is your not going to chance your opinion on him no matter what he does so there is really no point debating it with you. Now I'm not saying you are wrong, but I was just trying to show you that there are many ways to interpret something (it is not my intention to give you some kind of moralistic teaching or anything like that, I was just using this to empasize me point, and yes I did use the word complacency on purpose becuase of its negative connotation).

What was the point of that?

This thread is called "The Transformation of Kobe Bryant". There is an article at the first post of this thread, saying Kobe Bryant is beginning to change from the way he used to play. It is a well-known, generally held public opinion that Kobe was a selfish player before this, and it is now saying he is heading in a different direction.
Don't preach to me about negative connotations and whatever other points you're trying to make that I already know about. That bait line took your argument nowhere and is insulting to me.


Anyways... lets get back to celebrating the fact that Kobe Bryant is learning to play team basketball after 10+ seasons.

[sroz39]

Re: The transformation of Kobe Bryant

Anyways... lets get back to celebrating the fact that Kobe Bryant is learning to play team basketball after 10+ seasons.

I've enjoyed debating this topic with you, Brankles, because you have been stern in your assessment of Kobe while accepting of other's opinions that may not agree with you. You can't look past the guy's abrasive personality and attitude no matter how hard he works, while I can look past those things because he works so hard and loves the game so much. Nothing wrong with either view.

Having said that, I think your statement above is unfair. I think Kobe deferred quite a bit during their run, and really only was a "stat hog" for 2 seasons. Personally, I don't know how I would play if I was in his shoes. To know that you're that much a better player than any of your teammates and can make tough shots where they can't make the easy ones, I don't think I would be so "accomodating". But that's just me.

I am going to assume you were just a little bit frustrated with the post you were responding to.

[HMcCoy]

Re: The transformation of Kobe Bryant

That's been my #1 complaint of alot of Kobe fans. Last year people were defending Kobe's play saying he has no other alternative, his teammates suck, etc. This year, he has the SAME teammates, is actually passing to them, and look what's happening. I see alot of the alleged "haters" coming around now that Kobe has changed his ways (even I give the guy props), but the fanboys still don't change. They maintain that Kobe was in the right last season, eventhough everything this season contradicts that.




Now, this I entirely disagree with. Kobe deserves a chance to spray the league?? Wtf? Just because the guy was second bananna for three championships, it does not give him the right to do anything, but what is most beneficial to his team. Not himself. Too many basketball players have an ego and a sense of entitlement as it is, and I don't think Kobe of all people deserves anything. Yeah, screw his teammates, the zenmaster, and the organization for a couple of years, Kobe needs to get his, because the poor guy hasn't had a chance to really be selfish. Please. Luckily, (or unluckily if you are a fan of any other team sans the Lakers), Kobe is changing his ways and playing with his team rather than saying "I deserve to shoot 100 shots a game and ignore my teammates".

2 things...

#1 Teamates knowing a system and teamates not knowing a system are two different things. These are not the same teammates. And no it wasn't "screw the organization, screw the zenmaster"...Phil told Kobe to shoot more until they got the hang of things, which is probably the definitive opinion on what the Lakers needed from Bryant at the time, IMO. When Phil asked him to defer, he deferred...and almost knocked off the Suns doing it.

BTW, It occurs to me....Does that completely unselfish series counter-balance the one playoff series he was over-aggressive?


#2. Yes Deserved. For 8 years Kobe wasn't being branded as selfish...he was the leagues golden boy, operating like a good little soldier in the triangle, and was always one of the top assist men for SG's during their mini-dynasty. The hate was born from his arrogance, the perception that he was a spoiled beyotch, and the fact that he was getting too much props...not any glaring flaw in his game. As Brankles said, he wasn't the most chummy guy to be around. But detractors still harp on one doggone playoff series, and seem to use 1.5 seasons (out of 11) of ultra-aggression to define him as a ballplayer, which IMO, is flat-out untrue.

MJ's biggest motivation coming into the league was to show everyone what he could do..to prove he was an animal. He wanted to fry the enemy, both physically and mentally. The same applies to AI. Why is this concept suddenly "evil" when it comes to Kobe? When Michael got tired of the "MJ's a scorer, Magic is a winner" shots he adjusted his game, but do we hold Mike accountable for those first 6-7 seasons? Hell naw. Or what about Wilt? Scoring a hundred just because he could? Get that guy out of the Hall! The Dream was determined to whup the Admirals behind after he was beaten out for the MVP...was the Dream wrong for wanting people to see he was the better player? Well...It was if you were a San Antonio fan because homeboy put an absolutely murdering on Robinson in that post-season. They didn't run their normal offense, they fed him for 48 minutes. When did individual pride become a terrible trait to have, especially when you've put that pride aside for 8 years? Yeah, I know, Kobe doesn't compare to those guys yada, yada, yada...but the point is that tons of all-time greats took pride in dominating their opponents, whether offensively or defensively. An elite guy, forced to play second fiddle while playing with an even bigger star is a terrible guy for wanting to prove himself?

...It's not like he flat out admitted that there were times where he stopped caring about winning and losing, and only balled to maintain his image.

BTW, how many of you were damning T-Mac for wanting to get out from under VC's shadow in TOR, right after a deep playoff push? I wouldn't call that "ego" or "sense of entitlement"..the brotha just wanted to establish himself.

And Brankles...the fact that you keep ranting about a players attitude and arroagance, while beating your chest on a website and calling peoples opinions insulting is actually pretty funny. Yeah...I bet you would be REAL humble if you had Kobe's size and skillset.

[sroz39]

Re: The transformation of Kobe Bryant

2 things...

#1 Teamates knowing a system and teamates not knowing a system are two different things. These are not the same teammates. And no it wasn't "screw the organization, screw the zenmaster"...Phil told Kobe to shoot more until they got the hang of things, which is probably the definitive opinion on what the Lakers needed from Bryant at the time, IMO. When Phil asked him to defer, he deferred...and almost knocked off the Suns doing it.

BTW, It occurs to me....Does that completely unselfish series counter-balance the one playoff series he was over-aggressive?


#2. Yes Deserved. For 8 years Kobe wasn't being branded as selfish...he was the leagues golden boy, operating like a good little soldier in the triangle, and was always one of the top assist men for SG's during their mini-dynasty. The hate was born from his arrogance, the perception that he was a spoiled beyotch, and the fact that he was getting too much props...not any glaring flaw in his game. As Brankles said, he wasn't the most chummy guy to be around. But detractors still harp on one doggone playoff series, and seem to use 1.5 seasons (out of 11) of ultra-aggression to define him as a ballplayer, which IMO, is flat-out untrue.

MJ's biggest motivation coming into the league was to show everyone what he could do..to prove he was an animal. He wanted to fry the enemy, both physically and mentally. The same applies to AI. Why is this concept suddenly "evil" when it comes to Kobe? When Michael got tired of the "MJ's a scorer, Magic is a winner" shots he adjusted his game, but do we hold Mike accountable for those first 6-7 seasons? Hell naw. Or what about Wilt? Scoring a hundred just because he could? Get that guy out of the Hall! The Dream was determined to whup the Admirals behind after he was beaten out for the MVP...was the Dream wrong for wanting people to see he was the better player? Well...It was if you were a San Antonio fan because homeboy put an absolutely murdering on Robinson in that post-season. They didn't run their normal offense, they fed him for 48 minutes. When did individual pride become a terrible trait to have, especially when you've put that pride aside for 8 years? Yeah, I know, Kobe doesn't compare to those guys yada, yada, yada...but the point is that tons of all-time greats took pride in dominating their opponents, whether offensively or defensively. An elite guy, forced to play second fiddle while playing with an even bigger star is a terrible guy for wanting to prove himself?

...It's not like he flat out admitted that there were times where he stopped caring about winning and losing, and only balled to maintain his image.

BTW, how many of you were damning T-Mac for wanting to get out from under VC's shadow in TOR, right after a deep playoff push? I wouldn't call that "ego" or "sense of entitlement"..the brotha just wanted to establish himself...

This post is basically what I was trying to get at but it took me a few posts to do so. I think the dismissal of the MJ comparisons is a weak attempt at preserving an image of MJ that some people want to hold onto. Don't get me wrong, Jordan is the greatest player this league has ever seen. But to dismiss Kobe as having a chance to unseat MJ makes one sound very...old. Sort of a "my generation is better than your generation" mentality.

It is the same thing in golf. There are people who, even when Tiger beats Nicklaus' majors record, will forever say Jack was a better golfer for a myriad of foolish reasons. I'm not saying that Kobe will end up being a better player than MJ, I just think that he has the best chance to do so out of anyone out there, Lebron included. The parallels are too obvious to ignore. If MJ himself is okay with helping Kobe becoming a better player, fully knowing it may make him a better player than he was, who are we to say he's not?