Larry Bird best SF of all time?

[tenoob]

Re: Larry Bird best SF of all time?

Bird was great and all, BUT people seem to forget that he had ...

McKale
Ainge
Parrish
and Dennis Johnson

Because of the cap, there wouldn't have been enough money to go around in todays game. Therefore, it would've been Bird and the gang. Now, how successful do you think Bird would've been if the opposition could throw everything at him and not worry about the role players? If the game was on the line and you ABSOLUTELY KNEW that Bird was getting the ball without an Ainge, McKale, or Parrish to worry about, what would happen? Everybody knew Jordan was getting the ball, but they couldn't stop him.

So, you are telling me Jordan didn't have a great supporting cast himself
in his days that helped him to retire with 6 rings? Not to mention being
coached by the Phil Jackson.

(Scottie Pippen, Dennis Rodman, John Paxson, Steve Kerr, Horace Grant,
Luc Longley, Ron Harper, Toni Kukoc, Bill Wennington, B.J. Armstrong,
Bill Cartwright; ect).

ALL Hall of fame teams usually carry Hall of fame players with Hall of fame
Coaches and roleplayers don't they?

[tenoob]

Re: Larry Bird best SF of all time?

It's interesting that a guy who averaged over 5 dimes per game for his career was able to "shoot the ball 99.9% of the time".

To say that Jordan didn't make his teammates better is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard. Hell, before you even get into the basketball aspect of it just look at his work ethic and will to win. He imposed that on all of his teammates, just watch any interview with old teammates and they said how they were afraid to not give 100% effort because of Jordan.

Jordan did NOT make his teammates better, nobody in the NBA makes
anybody better than what they really are. Jordan just made the offense
easier for his teammates, if anything Jordan's cast brought out the best
in HIM; not the other way around because before then he was just an amazing scorer/defender. He was in the league how many years? If
what you said was true he would of won a ring each year. A guy who
passed as well as Jordan averaging 5 assists a game is not that great,
if he was truly a team player he would of never stepped down as PG.

He won championships because his organization did everything to
build a supporting cast around him, that usually only happens to
point guards and centers (Jordan was a shooting guard).

Jordan was one lucky sob, his style was so appealing The Bulls
did pretty much everything to make him successful including
bringing in Phil Jackson and Tex Winter to implement the triangle
offense (the offense which allowed Jordan to retire a legend).

You take alot of things Jordan was handed away, he would just
be another hall of famer not this "GOAT" that cast shadows over
players that deserve the same respect he does but don't get it
because they weren't as fortunate.

[jmood88]

Re: Larry Bird best SF of all time?

LeBron currently leads the NBA in 4th quarter scoring and there was that one Piston game last year...what clutch moment have you ever seen where Lebron didn't either shoot or dish the last shot? Some players don't even touch the ball down the stretch...can't remember any times like that for the Cavs..maybe I'm mistaken?

Back on topic, yes Larry was the best SF and will be until Bron wins some chips. Kinda unfair considering the comparitive supporting cast, but it is what it is....

Lebron is the only player I've seen get criticized for giving the ball to a teammate who has a better shot rather than hogging it and taking a bad shot.

[KENYON06]

Re: Larry Bird best SF of all time?

Definitely best Forward I've ever seen play. The dude had it all, and was somewhat maligned for his defense, but when he was young he was pretty good at it.And I think his athleticism gets overshadowed. People act like he was this cripple that played at a snails pace but IMO he was a pretty good athlete for that era until his back quit. I do believe LeBron James will surpass him eventually if the league continues to go back to the wide open pedal to the metal style of play that made 80's ball so great, because...that guy is just a specimen.

That said, I've seen some crazy things here talking about how the league was a defense first league and all this, when throughout the 80's, it was a run and gun league. The defense (man) was more physical perhaps, but definitely not better. I want the league to go back to that though. Run and gun, man-to-man, 48 minutes of breakneck basketball.

[grunt]

Re: Larry Bird best SF of all time?

He is up there but the best I don't kniow.

[JBH3]

Re: Larry Bird best SF of all time?

The best small forward of all time is Shaq...Hands down...

[homer73]

Re: Larry Bird best SF of all time?

Best i've ever seen at Sf.

Jordan, Bird, Dr.J, and Magic... the nba in the 80's rocked.

[tenoob]

Re: Larry Bird best SF of all time?

Definitely best Forward I've ever seen play. The dude had it all, and was somewhat maligned for his defense, but when he was young he was pretty good at it.And I think his athleticism gets overshadowed. People act like he was this cripple that played at a snails pace but IMO he was a pretty good athlete for that era until his back quit. I do believe LeBron James will surpass him eventually if the league continues to go back to the wide open pedal to the metal style of play that made 80's ball so great, because...that guy is just a specimen.

That said, I've seen some crazy things here talking about how the league was a defense first league and all this, when throughout the 80's, it was a run and gun league. The defense (man) was more physical perhaps, but definitely not better. I want the league to go back to that though. Run and gun, man-to-man, 48 minutes of breakneck basketball.

I know what you mean man, I was 4 years old watching showtime basketball and I loved it! The 80's was all about teamplay, Jordan's
90's has brought a depression, players trying to be like him and teams
building around guys like that. I'm glad there have been an emergence
of great point guard potential; hopefully we see more 5 man basketball
instead of Jordan wannabees and teams spoiling them rotten with
roleplayers whos egos are so bruised they need to live in the
shadows of players like these to be called "great".

[SkunkWurks6]

Re: Larry Bird best SF of all time?

LeBron currently leads the NBA in 4th quarter scoring and there was that one Piston game last year...what clutch moment have you ever seen where Lebron didn't either shoot or dish the last shot? Some players don't even touch the ball down the stretch...can't remember any times like that for the Cavs..maybe I'm mistaken?

Back on topic, yes Larry was the best SF and will be until Bron wins some chips. Kinda unfair considering the comparitive supporting cast, but it is what it is....

Don't compare a champion with someone who got swept out of the finals.

[arichzona]

Re: Larry Bird best SF of all time?

Some players don't even touch the ball down the stretch...can't remember any times like that for the Cavs..maybe I'm mistaken?

Not to start some ridiculous argument but which big name, clutch guy does not handle the ball in a tight spot?

[NBA2k8 CHAMP]

Re: Larry Bird best SF of all time?

Yes! I believe Bird is so far

[daflyboys]

Re: Larry Bird best SF of all time?

I don't think Pip is close. I'd put at least Dr. J and Elgin Baylor ahead of him.

Couldn't agree more. Pip, though a very nice player, was what he was b/c of you know who.

[arichzona]

Re: Larry Bird best SF of all time?

Jordan did NOT make his teammates better, nobody in the NBA makes
anybody better than what they really are. Jordan just made the offense
easier for his teammates, if anything Jordan's cast brought out the best
in HIM; not the other way around because before then he was just an amazing scorer/defender. He was in the league how many years? If
what you said was true he would of won a ring each year. A guy who
passed as well as Jordan averaging 5 assists a game is not that great,
if he was truly a team player he would of never stepped down as PG.

He won championships because his organization did everything to
build a supporting cast around him, that usually only happens to
point guards and centers (Jordan was a shooting guard).

Jordan was one lucky sob, his style was so appealing The Bulls
did pretty much everything to make him successful including
bringing in Phil Jackson and Tex Winter to implement the triangle
offense (the offense which allowed Jordan to retire a legend).

You take alot of things Jordan was handed away, he would just
be another hall of famer not this "GOAT" that cast shadows over
players that deserve the same respect he does but don't get it
because they weren't as fortunate.

oh my goodness!!! U are either posting simply because you are (a) a MJ ***** (b) simply trying to poke at the guys who are in his corner as the GOAT for fun in the Larry Bird section, or (c) really don't get it.

1) MJ's teammates are on record staying that they believe that MJ made them better . Did he make offense easier for them? sure....just like Magic did, just like Bird did, just like the Oscar did, Maravich, Stockton...all the greats. Even the big guys do this by drawing a double and dishing out to a perimeter guy for an open look.....he just made that guy better by improving his chances of hitting the shot. All the great do this by making offense easier for their teammates. Did you think MJ gave them extra drills or something?(might have though). Offense gets easier, you develop more confidence - if you lack confidence you will not succeed or be the best you are capable of - this applies far outside the world of sports. Whether he (any of the greats for that matter) make them physically better or not - they became mentally better which is huge.

If he were truly a team player he would never have stepped down as PG? WHAT?!?! So then Magic stepped down at Center because he couldn't preform in the post and was not a team player? No. Because it was not his natural position. Magic, like MJ, occasionally played out of position because that is what the team needed at that time (sickness, injury, or simply a coaching experiment) - that is playing team ball - doing what is best for your team. Not until Washington was MJ talked about as being THE PG. Kind of tough to transition at age 41.

2) would have won a ring each year......let's ask this.....who is the best golfer on the world? No one else to blame for errors on the course, yet he does not win every, single week.....Not to mention, that a lot of these greats (especailly in the 80's) overlapped careers therefore making it impossible for all of them to have won a ring every year. Does this reasoning now make Karl Malone not the best PF the game (IMO he was) ever saw? or using your prior reasoning...was he only good because of Stockton?

3) organization building.....this is what teams do. You build your team to be the best. Bring in coaches who will hopefully be successful. Does this mean that Red Auerbech and K.C. Jones are responsible for all those banners and retired jerseys in the rafters, more than the players?

4) which players in the HOF do not get respect because of MJ? Who was left out of the Hall because of MJ? Which great player did no one notice because MJ was in the league?

from nba.com:
At the 1997 NBA All-Star Game in Cleveland when they celebrated the the top 50 players in NBA history, it was interesting because it was nearly unanimous among the players was that this guy is the greatest player to ever play.

Looks like that guy he overshadowed was pissed off and didn't vote for him......then again, what do those guys know huh?

For the record re: the assists not being that great; One SG in the history of the league (Drexler/ 5.6 apg) averaged more APG than MJ.

[tenoob]

Re: Larry Bird best SF of all time?

If he were truly a team player he would never have stepped down as PG? WHAT?!?! So then Magic stepped down at Center because he couldn't preform in the post and was not a team player? No. Because it was not his natural position. Magic, like MJ, occasionally played out of position because that is what the team needed at that time (sickness, injury, or simply a coaching experiment) - that is playing team ball - doing what is best for your team. Not until Washington was MJ talked about as being THE PG. Kind of tough to transition at age 41.

Looks like that guy he overshadowed was pissed off and didn't vote for him......then again, what do those guys know huh?

For the record re: the assists not being that great; One SG in the history of the league (Drexler/ 5.6 apg) averaged more APG than MJ.

Lets just agree to disagree.

Jordan could of easily averaged 8-10+ assists (maybe even more?)
and scoring 20+ or 30+ points per game at the PG position.
Not to mention having the advantage of play calling, and
should the play break down the ball is already in Jordan's
hands so whats the worse that could of happened?

I'm not a Jordan *****, my mouth just so happens to be
far away from the guys ball-sack. Can't a guy be entitled
to his own oppinion without being called a *****?

Some people say Larry is overrated, some say Kobe is;
I'm one of the few that isn't saying Jordan is overrated
but "overglorified". Know what I'm saying? The guy was amazing;
but he wasn't in any way the GOAT.

Jordan to me is a GWOAT, Greatest winner of all time.

BTW Jordan was NOT asked to play PG for the first
time in Washington, when Doug Collins was coach
he put MJ at the PG to get under Magic Johnson's
skin and it worked. Actually alot better than anyone
ever anticipated.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=60XIzix3PlE

The only reason other players call Jordan the GOAT
is because Jordan put that in their minds everytime
he played against them, Jordan's game was all
psychological thats something people don't get.

As for the guys who never played with him, when
you hear Larry and Magic call him GOAT too you
nod along and take their word for it.

Jordan accomplished alot in his career, but to a
guy like me who watched Mike play from start to
finish you question alot of his judgement.

What if no Phil Jackson and Tex Winter come along,
that means no triangle offense. Would he of won 6
rings being the same old Jordan without the triangle?

I dunno man, but what I do know is had he never
stepped down from PG rest assured this question
wouldn't exist nor the doubt in my mind.

[tenoob]

Re: Larry Bird best SF of all time?

Another thing I question Jordan for is gambling in his own games which
lead to his first early "retirement" and MLB appearance.