Jose Calderon: why Assist/TO ratio is overrated

[J.R. Locke]

Re: Jose Calderon: why Assist/TO ratio is overrated

This is better and more to the point than my posts. Best explanation on why why teams use picks.

JR Locke, one of things you said is even CP3 needs a pick so even he isnt an extremely consistent penetrater. If he was then they would isolate all the time. Am I right in that summary?

Well tell how spreading out David West and Chandler benefits them? The Hornets only have two good shooters on the floor at any given time (CP3 is not one of them). If they spread them out and isoed how would they be able to best utilize their strengths which in this case is their balanced attack?

What are you arguing? The point of this post was that Jose Calderon could not blow by anyone (without a pick being emphasized). I was making the argument that very few PG's in the NBA can consistently get by an opposing PG without a pick. You argued that a PG's value was enhanced by the ability to blow by a defender without a pick. I argued that it wasn't that important.

So all this other stuff is kind of meaningless basketball strategy discussion that I will gladly engage in but if this is about a PG's ability to get to the hoop then we need to end the miscellaneous talk about team strategy.

If all PG's could get by a player without a pick you would spread the court more because help defense would have to come from further out (if you had shooters on the court). Again if all PG's were so great at getting to the cup I think more teams would just isolate instead of running team offenses based on pick n roll.

I would say the attributes Calderon possess (shooting, steady handle, passing) are far more important than an ability to get to the cup, which I believe you guys are saying is different than coming off a screen and driving for a mid range jumper. I believe that the skill to hit a jump shot is far more important in the NBA game than driving to the hoop. Guys like Marcus Banks are a dime a dozen but rarely excel at the NBA level. While penetration without a screen is a skill that doesn't hurt a player it doesn't really separate the great PG's in the NBA.

[Juice Malone]

Re: Jose Calderon: why Assist/TO ratio is overrated

What are you arguing? The point of this post was that Jose Calderon could not blow by anyone (without a pick being emphasized). I was making the argument that very few PG's in the NBA can consistently get by an opposing PG without a pick. You argued that a PG's value was enhanced by the ability to blow by a defender without a pick. I argued that it wasn't that important.

So all this other stuff is kind of meaningless basketball strategy discussion that I will gladly engage in but if this is about a PG's ability to get to the hoop then we need to end the miscellaneous talk about team strategy.

If all PG's could get by a player without a pick you would spread the court more because help defense would have to come from further out (if you had shooters on the court). Again if all PG's were so great at getting to the cup I think more teams would just isolate instead of running team offenses based on pick n roll.

You said only 2 pgs in the entire NBA can get the hoop at will in a one on one situation, i disagreed and gave reasons. You then disagreed because if that was the case then every team would isolate alot more. That led us to talk about team strategy and the reasons why that isnt the best course of action most of the time even if your PG is the type of talent that can get to the hoop alot due to the players around you and the system you are running. Its not like we brought that stuff up for no reason, you led us there.

Once again, I've been saying all along that not only elite pgs are capable of penetrating at will just that they do it better than good PGs. You act like im saying the opposite.

You on the other hand originally said that only CP3 and Parker can get to the hoop consistently one on one, now you are saying penetration isnt something that seperates elite pgs from everyone else. I'm confused.

Me and the poster I quoted gave reasons why teams dont just isolate/penetrate all the time despite having skilled penetrating pgs. You are just saying that you think you are right. Having an opinion is fine, but try and back it up with something more substantial.

I would say the attributes Calderon possess (shooting, steady handle, passing) are far more important than an ability to get to the cup, which I believe you guys are saying is different than coming off a screen and driving for a mid range jumper. I believe that the skill to hit a jump shot is far more important in the NBA game than driving to the hoop. Guys like Marcus Banks are a dime a dozen but rarely excel at the NBA level. While penetration without a screen is a skill that doesn't hurt a player it doesn't really separate the great PG's in the NBA

So do you believe that you dont need to be able to penetrate to be a great all star PG or that Calderon shouldnt be expected to penetrate because the majority of NBA players cant do it without a pick anyway? I'm not sure what you are getting at.

Either way I disagree though, I already said being able to get to the hoop is a basic skill required by any good PG except in rare circumstances.

CP3 is a good example of why PG doesnt need to be a good shooter to have success. He is average at best in that category, but his ability to penetrate is what allows to have an immediate impact on the game. Either he gets an easy shot or the D collapses on him and he gets someone else a good shot. If CP3 expanded his shooting range then he would become unguardable, but if he wasnt a master at using penetration to create for his teammates would he have been an MVP candidate last year? Probably not.

Shooting is important for a point guard also, but it is secondary to ball handling and driving. Creating oppurtunities for your teammates is what defines your ability to contribute to a team early on in your career. Shooting is just the icing on the cake that expands your game and allows to the stay around a little longer.

The subject we are talking about is the reason that Luther Head isnt going to be getting any playing time at PG like he used to and Brooks has seen alot of playing time with The Rockets recently. Luther Head cant do anything except shoot while Brooks makes his team better when he is on the floor by creating oppurtunities for his team with penetration despite being a very average NBA PG.

Penetration opens up the game for your teammates, staying on the perimeter all game and waiting for someone to come and get the ball or taking a shot yourself usually doesnt.

[J.R. Locke]

Re: Jose Calderon: why Assist/TO ratio is overrated

You said only 2 pgs in the entire NBA can get the hoop at will in a one on one situation, i disagreed and gave reasons.

Yes I believe that consistently we differ on what that means. Chris Paul and Tony Parker are the only players in the league that seem to have the ability to score in the lane effeciently after they blow by there defender (hence they shoot a high FG%)

You then disagreed because if that was the case then every team would isolate alot more. That led us to talk about team strategy and the reasons why that isnt the best course of action most of the time even if your PG is the type of talent that can get to the hoop alot due to the players around you and the system you are running. Its not like we brought that stuff up for no reason, you led us there.

Well teams would run more isolation with their PG's more than they do. There are a lot of reasons they don't but one is obviously the fact that most PG's can't get by opposing PG's without screens. Which

Once again, I've been saying all along that not only elite pgs are capable of penetrating at will just that they do it better than good PGs. You act like im saying the opposite.

Well fine but what does this have to do with Calderon and pick and rolls? Again I argue that only two players in the league are consistent and efficient at getting into the lane as a PG.

You on the other hand originally said that only CP3 and Parker can get to the hoop consistently one on one, now you are saying penetration isnt something that seperates elite pgs from everyone else. I'm confused.

The original post was about an uncreative PG and his lack of penetration ability. I argue that penetration without a pick is something that is not really relevant since most players cannot do it at what I would call a consistent and efficient level.

Parker's ability to hit a mid range jumper made him a great PG. Pauls ability to dribble in and around screens is what makes him the best PG in the league. Their ability to break down without a dribble is like an added attribute that doesn't matter all that much in my evaluation. They use picks better than any PG's in the league.

Me and the poster I quoted gave reasons why teams dont just isolate/penetrate all the time despite having skilled penetrating pgs. You are just saying that you think you are right. Having an opinion is fine, but try and back it up with something more substantial.

We could debate teams but each team is different etc....I don't see where you are going with this. I don't think I am wrong in saying if isolating PG's was an effective and effecient strategy, regardless of talent around them, more teams would do it.

So do you believe that you dont need to be able to penetrate to be a great all star PG or that Calderon shouldnt be expected to penetrate because the majority of NBA players cant do it without a pick anyway? I'm not sure what you are getting at.

Penetrate without a pick. No you do not need it to be a great allstar PG. It doesn't enhance a players use in the NBA as much as shooting, ball handling, passing etc....

Either way I disagree though, I already said being able to get to the hoop is a basic skill required by any good PG except in rare circumstances.

I agree. We were debating whether a pick was required to get penetration or not. We do not disagree about penetration being important but how it is obtained by a PG.

CP3 is a good example of why PG doesnt need to be a good shooter to have success. He is average at best in that category, but his ability to penetrate is what allows to have an immediate impact on the game. Either he gets an easy shot or the D collapses on him and he gets someone else a good shot. If CP3 expanded his shooting range then he would become unguardable, but if he wasnt a master at penetrating and creating for his teammates would he have been an MVP candidate last year? Probably not.

He is an efficient shooter, which has nothing to do with getting penetration without a screen. I don't know where your going with this. CP3 uses a screen to get his penetration a great majority of the time.

Shooting is important for a guard also, but it is secondary to ball handling and driving. Creating oppurtunities for your teammates is what defines your ability to contribute to a team early on in your career. Shooting is just the icing on the cake that expands your game and allows to the stay around a little longer.

I disagree. Relevant only to the team you have around you. Again I have never said driving is unimportant. I have only said driving without a screen is unimportant.

The subject we are talking about is the reason that Luther Head is getting splinters from riding the bench and Brooks has seen alot of playing time with The Rockets recently. Luther Head cant do anything except shoot while Brooks makes his team better when he is on the floor by creating oppurtunities for his team with penetration despite being a very average NBA PG.

Head was never a PG. So I don't really know what to say about this. I like Brooks, lightning quick, shoots well. But to me Luther Head doesn't play the same position, or wouldn't on my team.

To sum up I don't feel a PG's ability to beat a man off the dribble without a pick/screen has much importance. Obviously penetration is very important to a PG usefulness, I am not arguing against that. I think Jose Calderon also can get to the hole well off a pick n roll others think not.

[HMcCoy]

Re: Jose Calderon: why Assist/TO ratio is overrated

Calderon is nice. 15 and 10 dimes with very few TO's is great production no matter how he gets those numbers, IMO.

For the Raps to be elite, he does need to put a little more pressure on defenses though. On a jumpshooting team like the Raps, he should have lots of space to dive in and draw fouls.

edit: and oh yeah Rose > Calderone. That dude is a beast in training.

[SpacemanSpiff]

Re: Jose Calderon: why Assist/TO ratio is overrated

Yes I believe that consistently we differ on what that means. Chris Paul and Tony Parker are the only players in the league that seem to have the ability to score in the lane effeciently after they blow by there defender (hence they shoot a high FG%)

You're confusing penetration with finishing ability. Yes, Chris Paul and Tony Parker are maybe two of the best point guards at finishing at the rim but that's not all we're talking about. Penetration itself is important because it forces other players to rotate on defense to help out and opens up other players on cuts or open jumpers. The reason not every point guard can finish at the rim is because no team would just let him take layups; they rotate or help when the pg gets beat one on one. Penetration isn't important just for the scoring value that it can lead to, it is one of the best ways a PG can get the team offense going, getting teammates open jumpers or easy layups. Calderon isn't very good at breaking down the defense which prevents him from being an elite PG in my book; however he takes care of the ball extremely well, identifies open shooters well, and shoots the ball efficiently so I would still consider him a very good PG, right outside the top 10.

[J.R. Locke]

Re: Jose Calderon: why Assist/TO ratio is overrated

You're confusing penetration with finishing ability. Yes, Chris Paul and Tony Parker are maybe two of the best point guards at finishing at the rim but that's not all we're talking about. Penetration itself is important because it forces other players to rotate on defense to help out and opens up other players on cuts or open jumpers.

Not always. Teams don't rotate/help hard against guys like Marcus Banks.

Anyway I know penetration is important it is how penetration is acheived that we are debating. Paul and Parkers ability to finish is why I think they are effecient at isolating and driving.

[SpacemanSpiff]

Re: Jose Calderon: why Assist/TO ratio is overrated

Not always. Teams don't rotate/help hard against guys like Marcus Banks.

Anyway I know penetration is important it is how penetration is acheived that we are debating. Paul and Parkers ability to finish is why I think they are effecient at isolating and driving.

You can guarantee that when Marcus Banks gets by his man, the center or a forward is at the rim to prevent him from getting an open layup, leaving another man with a good opportunity to score. Now if Banks had good passing ability and vision he would be able to turn this into a positive assist for his team but he doesn't. Obviously penetration is not the only necessary attribute but it can do wonders when combined with good passing ability. The ability to finish may result in extra attention when they're driving but no player is a bad enough finisher that they can't finish when they get past their man and no one comes to contest the shot. Breaking down the defense is a huge attribute for a point guard, it leads to the truly easy shots.

[DC]

Re: Jose Calderon: why Assist/TO ratio is overrated

http://raptors.realgm.com/articles/51/20081204/who_would_you_rather_have_ford_or_calderon/

Nice article

[JBH3]

Re: Jose Calderon: why Assist/TO ratio is overrated

http://raptors.realgm.com/articles/5...d_or_calderon/

Nice article

Good article...I took Calderon over Ford in all the fantasy leagues where I was able to draft Calderon for the same reasons...durability.

[Archangel Havok]

Re: Jose Calderon: why Assist/TO ratio is overrated

Chris Quinn > Calderon > Magic

[Muzyk23]

Re: Jose Calderon: why Assist/TO ratio is overrated

Chris Quinn > Calderon > Magic

don't spam

[fluent2332]

Re: Jose Calderon: why Assist/TO ratio is overrated

I didn't read the thread, but watching a few raptors games, this guy isn't that good. i mean, he doesn't penetrate, ever. just pay attention to the offense when he's running it. most of the time it looks terrible because he can't penetrate past the foul line without dishing it. the raptors team as a whole is so unathletic and uncreative, its sad

and what's with people saying only 2 PGs can get into the lane? "do you fools listen to music or do you just skim thru it". well do you watch the games or just skim thru them?

[ryanm1058123]

Re: Jose Calderon: why Assist/TO ratio is overrated

That article is garbage. Effecient is trash when you don't create anything for anybody.

fluent, i agree.

[Stumbleweed]

Re: Jose Calderon: why Assist/TO ratio is overrated

Chauncey Billups: Why Assist/TO Ratio Is Not Always Overrated

[ryanm1058123]

Re: Jose Calderon: why Assist/TO ratio is overrated

Chauncey Billups: Why Assist/TO Ratio Is Not Always Overrated

Thats true. At least Chauncey gets his dudes easy shots