Durant as good--or better?!?!--than...

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  • ILLSmak
    MVP
    • Sep 2008
    • 2397

    #181
    Re: Durant as good--or better?!?!--than...

    KD is a super special player. I knew that from when I saw him at Texas. I believe that he is a more intelligent player than LeBron, but that's about all.

    It is NO COMPARISON. You'd have to come up with a hell of a gimmick to even make an argument.

    On the other hand (Gimmick time!), if I had a dominant big... Durant would be the clear supporting option.

    -Smak

    Comment

    • faster
      MVP
      • Dec 2002
      • 2182

      #182
      Re: Durant as good--or better?!?!--than...

      Originally posted by Bornindamecca
      You've hit on a key point of the Lebron debate right there. Some people think he is an SG/SF. Myself and others believe he should be an SF/PF. The stronger and taller you are, the more useful you are near the basket. The problem is that Lebron only uses his height on putbacks and drives, rather than post ups or a short range face up game.

      At his size and strength, Lebron is taking 3s and jumpers away from better shooters on the floor whenever he takes one. He is and always should be the third option behind and near the 3pt line. Kobe and MJ play the #1 position dedicated to taking those shots, so it's better if they master them.
      and therein lies my point EXACTLY. there is a roadmap to real dominance, championship dominance, and it's not well roudnedness and a morphing of all positions into one. it's great for stats, and there's many champions that have a variety of skills. however, there are mainly 3 ways i see to win a championship in the nba....

      1. with a guard that can dominate inside, outside, driving, and can and will take control in every single offensive fashion and win games with ice in his veins and not be limited to where on the court he wins it from.

      2. with a completely dominant big man as an anchor

      3. with an extremely unselfish team, dedicated to winning at all costs, being coached to be selfless and being driven to be the best

      and in my opinion, #3 doesn't happen often. it's unique and difficult and is sometimes a product of neither 1 or 2 being available that year.

      and lebron.... he won't be a part of #3. and he likely won't be a part of #2. and #1 i don't know if i see him ever being that player.

      i'm not saying he won't win titles and that you can't win titles in any other way, but the above really are the ways that gives you the best chance. lebron doesn't fit. he can take a team a long way, but his game is much like KGs.... on their own they are a very big piece of the puzzle, and many people see that they do a lot with a little, and they do, but they aren't the type of guys that are easy to build contenders around.

      and back to the durant topic. he does have some of those unique skills. he might not be that same dominant player overall, that can do it all, but when it's all said and done, i really do feel he might be better to build a team around in the long run. i think lebron is the easy choice, the choice that'll get ya some real quick looks at the title, almost make it look easy and inevitable, but championship teams all have great players, they have to. IMO, the great player who gives you the best odds and real titles, is durant.
      "Well the NBA is in great hands but if I had to pick the single greatest player on the planet, I take Kobe Bryant without hesitation." - Michael Jordan, 2006

      Comment

      • faster
        MVP
        • Dec 2002
        • 2182

        #183
        Re: Durant as good--or better?!?!--than...

        Originally posted by ILLSmak
        KD is a super special player. I knew that from when I saw him at Texas. I believe that he is a more intelligent player than LeBron, but that's about all.

        It is NO COMPARISON. You'd have to come up with a hell of a gimmick to even make an argument.

        On the other hand (Gimmick time!), if I had a dominant big... Durant would be the clear supporting option.

        -Smak
        that's exactly the point. lebron has the stats and the flash. at the end of the day, scoring and getting it done in a variety of way, from everywhere on the court, in the final few minutes, is what gets wins and championships. i build around kevin durant personally, because you need other players, and durant has skills that are easier to couple with other teammates and get championships... IMO at least.
        "Well the NBA is in great hands but if I had to pick the single greatest player on the planet, I take Kobe Bryant without hesitation." - Michael Jordan, 2006

        Comment

        • Bornindamecca
          Books Nelson Simnation
          • Jul 2007
          • 10919

          #184
          Re: Durant as good--or better?!?!--than...

          Durant is a specialist of the highest caliber right now, even at his young age. Every word from this off season is that he's getting better--much better. And in that sense, I agree with you. I think people are missing that he could be the Duncan to Lebron's Shaq, in a certain sense. Durant is more skill than athleticism, but his skills are SO sharp that you know exactly what to put around him. Duncan has had "good" and "very good" players around him, but Shaq has had HoFers. All championship teams have more than one good player, so that's not a knock on Shaq, Kobe, Timmy or anyone else. It's just a matter of how you get there.

          Because Lebron is a more unique athlete, it's going to take some time to figure out the championship formula. He needs the ball in his hands to be most effective, but what kind of PG is best? Defensive? Scoring? What kind of SG? A spot up guy, or a guy who can take the ball handling responsibilities away from Lebron?

          They haven't figured it out yet. Not totally. It's clear that he's better on a BIG team though, so surrounding him with size is at least a partial answer.

          For Kevin, it's all speculation, because he hasn't won as many games in his two seasons as Lebron won last season. But b-ball heads with the ability to project beyond what a team did last year are not fools for seeing great success in Velvet Hoop's future, both as an individual and as a teammate.


          As far as "better" or "as good as"--I'm kind of growing out of that debate when concerning players of a certain caliber. Once people reach a certain amount of accomplishments, the debate is senseless. (I'm going to regret this) I don't discuss Kobe and Lebron anymore solely because Kobe dominated this league for a DECADE as the best guard in the game, both as an individual, and as a team member. He did it as the 2nd option with Shaq, as a first option with Pau and Lamar. He led the league in scoring, scored the most as a guard and was the only star player to appear in back to back Finals on two different teams. In nine years, he want to the Finals six times.

          I'm not going to hold some young dude with great regular season numbers to that standard. Kobe is an historical NBA figure, even though he's just turned 31. Out of the three men to dominate the 2000-2010 era--Kobe, Shaq, Duncan--he is the only guard.

          I bring this up because this is the level that Chris Paul, Dwyane Wade, Lebron, Roy, Melo, Howard and Durant will have to see each other on. We can talk until we're blue in the face about this guy's footwork, that guy's range or athleticism, but the reality is that they will have to face each other over and over again, and the guy who wins the most is the best.
          Last edited by Bornindamecca; 08-25-2009, 10:49 PM.
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          • faster
            MVP
            • Dec 2002
            • 2182

            #185
            Re: Durant as good--or better?!?!--than...

            Originally posted by Bornindamecca
            Durant is a specialist of the highest caliber right now, even at his young age. Every word from this off season is that he's getting better--much better. And in that sense, I agree with you. I think people are missing that he could be the Duncan to Lebron's Shaq, in a certain sense. Durant is more skill than athleticism, but his skills are SO sharp that you know exactly what to put around him. Duncan has had "good" and "very good" players around him, but Shaq has had HoFers. All championship teams have more than one good player, so that's not a knock on Shaq, Kobe, Timmy or anyone else. It's just a matter of how you get there.

            Because Lebron is a more unique athlete, it's going to take some time to figure out the championship formula. He needs the ball in his hands to be most effective, but what kind of PG is best? Defensive? Scoring? What kind of SG? A spot up guy, or a guy who can take the ball handling responsibilities away from Lebron?

            They haven't figured it out yet. Not totally. It's clear that he's better on a BIG team though, so surrounding him with size is at least a partial answer.

            For Kevin, it's all speculation, because he hasn't won as many games in his two seasons as Lebron won last season. But b-ball heads with the ability to project beyond what a team did last year are not fools for seeing great success in Velvet Hoop's future, both as an individual and as a teammate.


            As far as "better" or "as good as"--I'm kind of growing out of that debate when concerning players of a certain caliber. Once people reach a certain amount of accomplishments, the debate is senseless. (I'm going to regret this) I don't discuss Kobe and Lebron anymore solely because Kobe dominated this league for a DECADE as the best guard in the game, both as an individual, and as a team member. He did it as the 2nd option with Shaq, as a first option with Pau and Lamar. He led the league in scoring, scored the most as a guard and was the only star player to appear in back to back Finals on two different teams. In nine years, he want to the Finals six times.

            I'm not going to hold some young dude with great regular season numbers to that standard. Kobe is an historical NBA figure, even though he's just turned 31. Out of the three men to dominate the 2000-2010 era--Kobe, Shaq, Duncan--he is the only guard.

            I bring this up because this is the level that Chris Paul, Dwyane Wade, Lebron, Roy, Melo, Howard and Durant will have to see each other on. We can talk until we're blue in the face about this guy's footwork, that guy's range or athleticism, but the reality is that they will have to face each other over and over again, and the guy who wins the most is the best.
            Great post and you get at many of my feelings. In my mind there are standard formulas and they work. Templates are there. Guys like Lebron and KG present different skillsets and those formulas, as you say, haven't been successfully created and duplicated.

            Lebron is the ultimate question mark for a teambuilder. At the end of the day, you want either a shooter or a big man to be your base. Lebron is neither but he is both, and therein lies the rub. He also needs constant touches. It's a tough equation to get right if you ask me. He strikes me as the KG player..... a guy who will have long term success but won't hit the promise land, or not often.
            "Well the NBA is in great hands but if I had to pick the single greatest player on the planet, I take Kobe Bryant without hesitation." - Michael Jordan, 2006

            Comment

            • ex carrabba fan
              I'll thank him for you
              • Oct 2004
              • 32744

              #186
              Re: Durant as good--or better?!?!--than...

              I honestly can't believe I just read "Lebron is the ultimate question mark for a teambuilder".

              What more do want him to do man. SMH. The guy plays "the right way" on virtually every play of every game. Sure he has shortcomings, but he can't shoot every shot.. unfortunately Mo went milk carton.

              You put him on the Lakers and I'd love to see what happens. You put Kobe on Cleveland and I'd love to see what happens.

              I can't believe people think that.. I really can't.

              Comment

              • bluemj32
                Rookie
                • Aug 2009
                • 65

                #187
                Re: Durant as good--or better?!?!--than...

                ex carrabba fan you couldn't have said it better. I am not a fan of any particular team but am a huge basketball fanatic that tries to watch as much nba on my league pass that I can and the same can. Lebron is one of those one in a life time freak of nature players (ala shaq) hes only 24 as well.

                And as far as Durant, love the kid actually watched him @ UT, hes special but his dont trasnlate into what bron does for you game in and game out on the court. KD is a great scorer right now but does not have a major strenght right now besides that. I believe he will be a top 3 player in the future but Brons ceiling is higher due to the celinig that he has but it depends on how how good bron wants to be will he have a Tmac mentallity (not reataching his full potential) or a kobe?

                Note: (KD has a celing as well but it is unlikely if hell ever b as fast, strong, quick, have the nataural insticts and vision that bron has)

                Comment

                • faster
                  MVP
                  • Dec 2002
                  • 2182

                  #188
                  Re: Durant as good--or better?!?!--than...

                  Originally posted by ex carrabba fan
                  I honestly can't believe I just read "Lebron is the ultimate question mark for a teambuilder".

                  What more do want him to do man. SMH. The guy plays "the right way" on virtually every play of every game. Sure he has shortcomings, but he can't shoot every shot.. unfortunately Mo went milk carton.

                  You put him on the Lakers and I'd love to see what happens. You put Kobe on Cleveland and I'd love to see what happens.

                  I can't believe people think that.. I really can't.
                  Great players don't make building a team around them instantly easy IMO. If it was that simple, the greatest players would have the most titles. It's not that simple and that's what I'm trying to get at.

                  I put up with this same thinking for years here in Minnesota. After a couple years in the league I said Tim Duncan is easier to build a team around and I'd take him over KG in a heartbeat. 10 years later people finally started agreeing with that statement in MN.
                  "Well the NBA is in great hands but if I had to pick the single greatest player on the planet, I take Kobe Bryant without hesitation." - Michael Jordan, 2006

                  Comment

                  • PrettyT11
                    MVP
                    • Jul 2008
                    • 3220

                    #189
                    Re: Durant as good--or better?!?!--than...

                    Originally posted by faster
                    Great players don't make building a team around them instantly easy IMO. If it was that simple, the greatest players would have the most titles. It's not that simple and that's what I'm trying to get at.
                    Come again?? I don't know how you figure that. They do have the most titles. Take the 80's throught the 90's. The best players from that time was Jordan, Magic, and Bird. Between 1980 through 1998 they won 14 of the 19 NBA titles. And those five years one of them didn't win it the team that one was lead by no doubt first ballot hall of Famers. Plus two of those years Jordan was chasing fastballs. There was only one year during the 80's that the finals did not include the Lakers or Celtics.

                    If you take the past decade the three best players are Shaq, Duncan, and Kobe. Between them they have won 9 of the past 11 championships and there has not been an NBA finals without one of them three in it.

                    So as you can see the best players do have the most rings.

                    I put up with this same thinking for years here in Minnesota. After a couple years in the league I said Tim Duncan is easier to build a team around and I'd take him over KG in a heartbeat. 10 years later people finally started agreeing with that statement in MN.
                    See this goes to the previous point. Tim Duncan has always been the better player. KG has been great but Duncan has been better. You combine that with the fact that Duncan has had the better teammates and the far better front office and you see why he has more rings.

                    Comment

                    • HMcCoy
                      All Star
                      • Jan 2003
                      • 8212

                      #190
                      Re: Durant as good--or better?!?!--than...

                      Originally posted by faster
                      Great players don't make building a team around them instantly easy IMO. If it was that simple, the greatest players would have the most titles. It's not that simple and that's what I'm trying to get at.

                      I put up with this same thinking for years here in Minnesota. After a couple years in the league I said Tim Duncan is easier to build a team around and I'd take him over KG in a heartbeat. 10 years later people finally started agreeing with that statement in MN.
                      The first time KG played with real all-NBA talent, he won a title.

                      The first time.

                      Just sayin'...
                      Hank's Custom Collectibles 3D printer/painter extraordinaire

                      Comment

                      • AlexBrady
                        MVP
                        • Jul 2008
                        • 3341

                        #191
                        Re: Durant as good--or better?!?!--than...

                        Originally posted by Cebby
                        If you're going to differentiate like that, Durant is probably a top 5 scorer.
                        No, he is not. His post game is not on par with other wings and he can't finish after contact like Kobe, Lebron, Wade, Pierce, and Carmelo can. It should also be noted that these players are more creative scorers than Durant is. He is easier to push around because of his frail physique.
                        Last edited by AlexBrady; 08-29-2009, 09:58 PM.

                        Comment

                        • ex carrabba fan
                          I'll thank him for you
                          • Oct 2004
                          • 32744

                          #192
                          Re: Durant as good--or better?!?!--than...

                          Originally posted by AlexBrady
                          No, he is not. His post game is not on par with other wings and he can't finish after contact like Kobe, Lebron, Wade, Pierce, and Carmelo can. It should also be noted that these players are more creative scorers than Durant is. He is easier to push around because of his frail physique.
                          He's not clear cut top 5 scorer, but he's clear cut top 10

                          This thread is going to look silly mid way through the season, in terms of Durant not being a top 24 player.

                          Comment

                          • o_capone
                            Banned
                            • Apr 2009
                            • 1270

                            #193
                            Re: Durant as good--or better?!?!--than...

                            im gonna be breaking down the top players in the league and what they do that does not show up in the box score, IMO that's gonna give us a better view of who is really better than who. that's the cornerstone of my website. i dont think i ever seen anyone actually document the things that are done that don't show up in the box score, they always mention them, but never document them.

                            Comment

                            • AlexBrady
                              MVP
                              • Jul 2008
                              • 3341

                              #194
                              Re: Durant as good--or better?!?!--than...

                              Originally posted by o_capone
                              im gonna be breaking down the top players in the league and what they do that does not show up in the box score, IMO that's gonna give us a better view of who is really better than who. that's the cornerstone of my website. i dont think i ever seen anyone actually document the things that are done that don't show up in the box score, they always mention them, but never document them.
                              A good idea. Sturdy screens, stout post defense, and commanding a two time does not show up in any box score.

                              Comment

                              • o_capone
                                Banned
                                • Apr 2009
                                • 1270

                                #195
                                Re: Durant as good--or better?!?!--than...

                                Originally posted by AlexBrady
                                A good idea. Sturdy screens, stout post defense, and commanding a two time does not show up in any box score.
                                yessir check out http://www.kobevslebron.us/breakdowns.php for things the website will be tracking, the list is still growing though

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