The Allen Iverson Saga

[P2K]

Re: The Allen Iverson Saga

I guess the root of it is that in that season, AI was an efficient player for the first time in his career. Whether that was because of the surrounding cast, a change in his play, or if it was simply an anomaly, I don't think any one of us is really in the position to say. He was put in a position to succeed and did so (helming a 50 win team and getting Top 10 scoring honors would be considered a success by most standards) -- people seem to always argue that he's a net loss for a team despite his numbers or that he's uniquely inefficient among guards, neither of which is true. He's about as inefficient as any other high-volume scorer, most of which are doing it with a large size advantage over AI and often on better teams, which in my mind put him on the same level. I'm not arguing that he's on Kobe and Wade's level overall, but in terms of efficiency of mid-range shooting and scoring in general, he was certainly comparable for his full year in Denver, and considering his size, it's quite remarkable he's even in the discussion overall. Someone like Joe Johnson is far worse than AI in nearly every category (3PT% was the exception I think) despite being almost 6'8" and yet gets very little flak for it.

Anyway, this is all pretty pointless. I hope Philly signs him and he shows that he still has something left in the tank, because I think he'd be a big boost for them, even when Lou Williams comes back. They're a borderline playoff team and having a scorer like that in a series would give them a chance for an upset and a 2nd round berth, which I think is the absolute ceiling for the team as it's presently constructed. They lose nothing except for his salary (no luxury tax, no future commitment), would gain a boost in revenue at least initially, would get a lot more exposure/hype since the narrative is so perfect, and gain a guy who can create his own shot at a high level. The only real negative that could come is if he doesn't adjust well to Lou being back or if he somehow ruins their young players with his lifestyle/work ethic... that's such a small risk in the overall picture that I don't know why they wouldn't sign him.

The negative is minutes and shots from both Lou Will and Jrue. The negative is keeping this team extra mediocre. Let them keep losing. Don't infect those young players with that virus.

[candiasis]

Re: The Allen Iverson Saga

Yo that's some pretty blatant trolling above my post here (this is imo and this is not a call out to be clear). It seems bans are threatened for people calling out trolls but blatant trolling is allowed. Confusing system, anyways moving on.

What Stumbleweed meant by 'high usage guards', in relation to their usually not too impressive mid range % as compared to the league average, is that they're the focal offensive tools of their respective teams. Which meant they were relied upon to take the most shots and often create their own shots or set up other team mates for shots as well as take the bail out shots of a team. They also were the focal point of opposing team's defensive sets. So with the number of shots they were taking, often because they were the only ones who could get shots off in the first place, their percentages aren't going to be above par.

What is impressive about the high scorers though is they can achieve such apparent average fg %'s on as many points as they manage to average. Like a 12 ppg role player might have a stellar mid range field goal % or whatever, but ask him to score more and you'll see that average more than likely drop below well below the league average because he simply can't create shots on his own or handle the defensive attention that comes with being a primary scorer. Anyways a little food for thought to add to stumbleweed's excellent dissection of the stats.

[Stumbleweed]

Re: The Allen Iverson Saga

P2K, do you think that Jrue, the youngest player in the NBA, really needs a ton of minutes this year to avoid stunting his growth? Seems like he would be fine with 15 MPG to me...

As far as Lou, when he comes back, he'll be the PG and AI would slide to SG, leaving Iggy at the 3, Brand at the 4, and Emo-bert at the 5. AI would mostly cut minutes from freakin Willie Green and the others who are filling in for Lou right now, right? You really think Jordan would cut Lou's minutes when he's playing as well as he is? Unless he decides that twin guard lineup with AI is too small or too much of a defensive liability, I wouldn't imagine Green getting that much burn.

I don't watch the team enough, so maybe I'm off-base, but that's what it looks like from an outsider. Their guards are HORRIBLE right now, but Lou was having a good enough year to slide right back into his starting role and minutes, so I don't see how he'd be negatively affected (aside from the supposed AI "bad influence" aspect, which I think is overblown).

[slimm44]

Re: The Allen Iverson Saga

Yo that's some pretty blatant trolling above my post here (this is imo and this is not a call out to be clear). It seems bans are threatened for people calling out trolls but blatant trolling is allowed. Confusing system, anyways moving on.

What Stumbleweed meant by 'high usage guards', in relation to their usually not too impressive mid range % as compared to the league average, is that they're the focal offensive tools of their respective teams. Which meant they were relied upon to take the most shots and often create their own shots or set up other team mates for shots as well as take the bail out shots of a team. They also were the focal point of opposing team's defensive sets. So with the number of shots they were taking, often because they were the only ones who could get shots off in the first place, their percentages aren't going to be above par.

What is impressive about the high scorers though is they can achieve such apparent average fg %'s on as many points as they manage to average. Like a 12 ppg role player might have a stellar mid range field goal % or whatever, but ask him to score more and you'll see that average more than likely drop below well below the league average because he simply can't create shots on his own or handle the defensive attention that comes with being a primary scorer. Anyways a little food for thought to add to stumbleweed's excellent dissection of the stats.

Primary scorers with better mid-range games (statically) than Iverson - Dirk, Wade, Kobe, Rip (A lot of this has to do with system), Durant, Bosh, Tony Parker, David West, Ben Gordon, Derrick Rose, Danny Granger, Kevin Garnett, OJ Mayo, Brandon Roy, Chris Paul, Josh Howard, Jason Terry, Deron Williams, and Paul Pierce. There are probably more, but I thought I would stop there.

Can you give me something objective that would help your case that Iverson is a good mid-range shooter? I've given you objective and subjective into that go towards proving he is not. HE IS A VERY GOOD SCORER, just not from mid-range.

If you can't bring meat to the table, don't bother coming with anything. If you still want to believe, howbeit blindly, that Iverson has a good mid-range game, go ahead. I don't think I can give you much more to help you see it.

[GSW]

Re: The Allen Iverson Saga

lol @ iverson in the princeton offense.

This should be fun.

I'm sorry p2k.

[KG]

Re: The Allen Iverson Saga

lol @ iverson in the princeton offense.

This should be fun.

I'm sorry p2k.

It worked for Gil and he's almost the ball hog AI is.

[Jukeman]

Re: The Allen Iverson Saga

It worked for Gil and he's almost the ball hog AI is.

That doesnt matter because AI is one of a kind and is the only player in NBA history who plays like he did as a sixer...

They also will say they Gil hasnt won anything, dispite Arenas being one of the most popular players in these forums a couple years ago...

AI is god and anything besides a championship is a failure....

Gotta luv OS

[GSW]

Re: The Allen Iverson Saga

thats funny because it didnt "work" for Gilbert.

[P2K]

Re: The Allen Iverson Saga

P2K, do you think that Jrue, the youngest player in the NBA, really needs a ton of minutes this year to avoid stunting his growth? Seems like he would be fine with 15 MPG to me...

This team sucks. What harm would it do letting him start the rest of the season? As soon as he was drafted, he became the best defender among the guards. And he looks so natural out there as the point. Play him.

As far as Lou, when he comes back, he'll be the PG and AI would slide to SG, leaving Iggy at the 3, Brand at the 4, and Emo-bert at the 5. AI would mostly cut minutes from freakin Willie Green and the others who are filling in for Lou right now, right? You really think Jordan would cut Lou's minutes when he's playing as well as he is? Unless he decides that twin guard lineup with AI is too small or too much of a defensive liability, I wouldn't imagine Green getting that much burn.

The problem will be Lou's touches. He's averaging 17 ppg at like 49% from the field. And more importantly, 5 apg with less than 2 turnovers. I just want the ball to keep being in his hands at this rate. With AI, his touches get shot to hell. And Jrue will go from however many minutes now...to zero.

I don't watch the team enough, so maybe I'm off-base, but that's what it looks like from an outsider. Their guards are HORRIBLE right now, but Lou was having a good enough year to slide right back into his starting role and minutes, so I don't see how he'd be negatively affected (aside from the supposed AI "bad influence" aspect, which I think is overblown).

I already explained the negatives above and on top of that, Lou will be affected. The best thing that happened to Lou was getting Andre Miller right after AI because Lou picked up bad habits. Learning from Miller helped him LOTS. Larry Hughes was seriously affected by Iverson.

Everyone's touches will go down. Thad Young. Speights.

[P2K]

Re: The Allen Iverson Saga

thats funny because it didnt "work" for Gilbert.

lol

But anyway, Arenas may be a ball hog, but nowhere near AI.

LOL @ AI in a ball movement offense.

[GSW]

Re: The Allen Iverson Saga

LOL @ AI in a ball movement offense.

seriously comical.

[Jukeman]

Re: The Allen Iverson Saga

See, told you...

[ProfessaPackMan]

Re: The Allen Iverson Saga

Yea, not really liking that AI in an ball movement offense either.

And Jukeman, told us what?

[Jukeman]

Re: The Allen Iverson Saga

Yea, not really liking that AI in an ball movement offense either.

And Jukeman, told us what?

If you have to ask that question then forget it...Wasnt for "us" anyways...


However, I find it funny that in all AI threads, the people who post in it who dont troll and call names says they want AI to share the ball and play in a offense...They say they want him to change his game....Now its "Oh no, AI in a ball movement offense" gotta luv OS...Like damn let him play a game in the princeton first...

[23]

Re: The Allen Iverson Saga

I can understand that sentiment but its the attitude that he has, and that very attitude is what has him where he is now and so far he's not been willing to change.

They're saying yeah right because up to this point AI has gone out of his way to show the very opposite. Its pretty much all about what he wants over the team, how he should start, how this and that should happen, how the circumstances has to be right for him and how the situation has to fit HIM.

He's going to have sceptics until he proves otherwise man, so while I understand what you're saying, he has had the opposite attitude and game of that kind of an offense, and at this point noone believes he's going to change, again, because all that he has talked about has been just the opposite of that.