The LeBron James Thread

[Starlin4Prez]

Re: LeBron James Signs With Miami Heat

This is why I don't argue with people that make ridiculous statements...

Because I know wwharton will come and drop all the knowledge I was thinking in a more consolidated manner.

[wwharton]

Re: LeBron James Signs With Miami Heat

Why?

Jordan never took a basement dwelling team to 6 championship titles. He took a 55 win team to 3 titles and a better team to 3 titles.

Then some are stupid.

Why should Lebron be penalized for taking over a series against a championship team only to lose to the second biggest dynasty of the last 10 years?

If Jordan had managed to get past the Pistons in 1988 they probably get beat by the Lakers.

If he wins 6 chips, I'd definitely take 6 chips in 7 appearances over 6 chips in 6 appearances and so would any logically thinking person.

But Jordan didn't win against any of them.

Jordan lost both series against Bird while winning 0 games.

Jordan never played Kareem and won one chip against a 31 year old Magic in his last full season.

Jordan never played Hakeem in a playoff series.

That would be like Lebron beating the Lakers this year, winning a few chips and saying that Lebron won chips in the era of Duncan, Kobe, and Shaq.

Jordan didn't win in the era of Bird, Kareem, and Magic. He didn't play in the era of Hakeem. He won in the era of Jordan, Malone, and maybe Ewing.

I have no idea who you're arguing with, Cebby, but I was throwing out reasons some may say Lebron has destroyed his shot at being the GOAT. I stated that I don't necessary agree with any or all of those listed AND purposely left out some other controversial ones that I'm sure others are thinking. I honestly didn't want to get into any sort of talk about MJ vs LBJ at all but since I jumped in with the break down of skills I figured I'd add something relevant, but there's no way I'm debating something I was just throwing out as ideas. You disagree with all of those? Cool... I disagree with some too.

I will respond to the first though (with full disclosure to be clear). I don't think leaving Cleveland is WHY James is basically out of the GOAT discussion. However, Jordan did take a bottom dweller to 6 rings, just like James would have if the Cavs ended up winning 6 rings in his time on the team. If he stayed and the Cavs won next year it wouldn't be "James took a team that won 66 games the year before to a championship". I think you know that too so I don't know why you'd even go there... even for someone that just likes to argue. The state of the Cavs before James arrived (much like the state of the Bulls before Jordan) would most definitely be tied to how big winning a championship is.

[wwharton]

Re: LeBron James Signs With Miami Heat

This is why I don't argue with people that make ridiculous statements...

Because I know wwharton will come and drop all the knowledge I was thinking in a more consolidated manner.

Except when you argue with me too, lol.

[Cebby]

Re: LeBron James Signs With Miami Heat

I will respond to the first though (with full disclosure to be clear). I don't think leaving Cleveland is WHY James is basically out of the GOAT discussion. However, Jordan did take a bottom dweller to 6 rings, just like James would have if the Cavs ended up winning 6 rings in his time on the team. If he stayed and the Cavs won next year it wouldn't be "James took a team that won 66 games the year before to a championship". I think you know that too so I don't know why you'd even go there... even for someone that just likes to argue. The state of the Cavs before James arrived (much like the state of the Bulls before Jordan) would most definitely be tied to how big winning a championship is.

Jordan's "bottom feeders" won 55 games after he retired.

The Bulls were a good team without Jordan.

If the Cavs win 59 games, then we can say that Jordan and James both had bottom feeders and Jordan could take his to a championship while Lebron couldn't.

[ProfessaPackMan]

Re: LeBron James Signs With Miami Heat

Good lord Cebby, what in the blue hell was that?

[Murkurial]

Re: LeBron James Signs With Miami Heat

Good lord Cebby, what in the blue hell was that?

He's losin' his mind. At least people are calling him on his fantasyworld comments though.

[wwharton]

Re: LeBron James Signs With Miami Heat

Jordan's "bottom feeders" won 55 games after he retired.

The Bulls were a good team without Jordan.

If the Cavs win 59 games, then we can say that Jordan and James both had bottom feeders and Jordan could take his to a championship while Lebron couldn't.

Now I really don't know where you're coming from. Before the Bulls got Jordan they were widely known as one of the (if not THE) worse team in the NBA. All of the Bulls success (rings) is considered Jordan's success. The same would've been true for Lebron. Makes no difference what happened after the man retired. Honestly, you could say some of the great players they get today are because of the legacy created back then. Who knows if Cleveland could've been in the same situation if James retired a Cav and gave 6 rings to the team.

You're talking about something completely irrelevant.

[Cebby]

Re: LeBron James Signs With Miami Heat

Good lord Cebby, what in the blue hell was that?

Any notion that the Bulls were "bottom dwellers" that Jordan dragged to championships is nonsense.

The "bottom dwellers" that Jordan inherited still sucked even when Jordan was on the team.

The teams that Jordan won championships with were about as far from "bottom dwellers" as you can get. They won 55 games when Jordan retired, down from 57 with Jordan.

[pietasterp]

Re: LeBron James Signs With Miami Heat

Jordan's "bottom feeders" won 55 games after he retired.

The Bulls were a good team without Jordan.

If the Cavs win 59 games, then we can say that Jordan and James both had bottom feeders and Jordan could take his to a championship while Lebron couldn't.

Are you intentionally making straw man arguments just so as not to lose, or is this really just how you view the situation? Either way, your analysis is wrong.

The argument is that MJ and LeBron both came IN to bad situations, and subsequently raised the level of their respective teams to contender status. So that we're not just going around in circles, numbers for the 3 seasons preceding the years MJ and LBJ were drafted (courtesy of NBA.com):

1983-84 Chicago 27 55 .329 5th Central Division - - - DNQ
1982-83 Chicago 28 54 .341 4th Central Division - - - DNQ
1981-82 Chicago 34 48 .415 5th Central Division - - - DNQ

2002-03 Cleveland 17 65 .207 8th Central Division - - - DNQ
2001-02 Cleveland 29 53 .354 7th Central Division - - - DNQ
2000-01 Cleveland 30 52 .366 6th Central Division - - - DNQ


So the comparison is not only apt, it's darn near right on the nose (even the same conference!). How the teams fare(d) after their departures is not as relevant, because a lot of other personnel changes happened between the times they were drafted and the times they subsequently left. Either way, the contention that they were both drafted by poor teams is accurate any way you look at it.

[da ThRONe]

Re: LeBron James Signs With Miami Heat

First of all, lets get one thing straight... Lebron's passing ability is not compared to Magic. Lebron's ability to play his position like a PG, and at a high level, at his size is compared to Magic. Lebron is a good passer and I'm not saying otherwise, but it's more obvious because of his nature as a player. Don't get it twisted, Jordan didn't want to pass the ball to ANYBODY... but that doesn't mean he wasn't a good passer. The one time Cebby mentioned that he averaged 10 assists came after a reporter criticized him for not being able to pass. He decided to prove the guy wrong. I've watched both play and Lebron's mentality is more suited for a role that gets assists but it's arguable who the better "passer" is.

Besides that's only one of the many things you mentioned. It was a stretch trying to put him over Jordan the way you were.

The thing about Lebron is he's built like a PF. It's amazing that he is quick and coordinated enough to do things that a PG or SG can do at his height and size. THAT is why he's a freak like we've never seen before. But the fact that this mammoth can drive by a guard to get to the rim and score is what's amazing... not the thought that he can do it better than Jordan. There are certainly things he can do better than Jordan, like shoot 3's and use his power along with quickness on drives, but lets not confuse his skills "at his size" with skills in general.

EDIT: before I get too deep in this, let me say again, these are not the things that should be talked about when comparing the two. Jordan's heart and killer instinct make Lebron look like a JV baller.

Thats funny because EVERY basketball analyst compares his passing skills to that of the forementioned Magic.

I never said he was better than Jordan. There is more to sports than just raw talent , but IMO he is better at the areas that I mentioned. What I did say was he isnt out of discussion of being better than Jordan. He already has two MVP awards has lead a team that IMO is way worse than any of Jordan title teams to the best regular season record back-to-back with a Finals apperance. Just the fact that LeBron did it without a Pippen type speaks volumes.

[King_B_Mack]

Re: LeBron James Signs With Miami Heat

Why?

Jordan never took a basement dwelling team to 6 championship titles. He took a 55 win team to 3 titles and a better team to 3 titles.

Then some are stupid.

Why should Lebron be penalized for taking over a series against a championship team only to lose to the second biggest dynasty of the last 10 years?

If Jordan had managed to get past the Pistons in 1988 they probably get beat by the Lakers.

If he wins 6 chips, I'd definitely take 6 chips in 7 appearances over 6 chips in 6 appearances and so would any logically thinking person.

But Jordan didn't win against any of them.

Jordan lost both series against Bird while winning 0 games.

Jordan never played Kareem and won one chip against a 31 year old Magic in his last full season.

Jordan never played Hakeem in a playoff series.

That would be like Lebron beating the Lakers this year, winning a few chips and saying that Lebron won chips in the era of Duncan, Kobe, and Shaq.

Jordan didn't win in the era of Bird, Kareem, and Magic. He didn't play in the era of Hakeem. He won in the era of Jordan, Malone, and maybe Ewing.

Is this really what this discussion has come to? Dude any credibility you had you flushed down the toilet with that post man. Kareem's era we can all probably agree that he didn't play in, but he most certainly beat Magic and the Lakers for his first title, in fact considering Kareem didn't retire until '89 he did play in his era. I also like how you say a 31 year old Magic to knockdown Jordan's win. Correct me if I'm wrong but is Kobe not in his 30's right now? Was Jordan not winning titles until he was almost 40? As for Hakeem...how the hell did he not play in the Hakeem era and magically managed to play in the Ewing and Malone era? Maybe I imagined the '84 draft when Hakeem went two picks ahead of him. It's pointless for anyone to argue this with you when you make points like these trying to bend everything to make your arguments fit.

[ProfessaPackMan]

Re: LeBron James Signs With Miami Heat

Thats funny because EVERY basketball analyst compares his passing skills to that of the forementioned Magic.

I never said he was better than Jordan. There is more to sports than just raw talent , but IMO he is better at the areas that I mentioned. What I did say was he isnt out of discussion of being better than Jordan. He already has two MVP awards has lead a team that IMO is way worse than any of Jordan title teams to the best regular season record back-to-back with a Finals apperance. Just the fact that LeBron did it without a Pippen type speaks volumes.

They didn't have the best record in the league when he went to the Finals.

[da ThRONe]

Re: LeBron James Signs With Miami Heat

They didn't have the best record in the league when he went to the Finals.

I didnt mean in the same year.


I dont think there's any agruement that the Bulls were terrible before MJ got there. But Jordan inherited Pippen while James got who? Jordan has zero titles without Pippen. As great as Jordan is and right now he's the GOAT. But no Pip no chips. So to start hanging that over LBJ's head then bash him for going to a situation where he is now on (on paper) the best team in the league is ridiculous.

[Cebby]

Re: LeBron James Signs With Miami Heat

So the comparison is not only apt, it's darn near right on the nose (even the same conference!). How the teams fare(d) after their departures is not as relevant, because a lot of other personnel changes happened between the times they were drafted and the times they subsequently left. Either way, the contention that they were both drafted by poor teams is accurate any way you look at it.

They were both drafted by awful teams.

However, when Jordan won the team was coached by the best coach ever, had a top 50 player of all time who would finish #3 in MVP voting, and won 55 games the year after Jordan retired with the same team minus Jordan.

Again, both players were drafted by bad teams. Jordan did not win with that bad team. Jordan won with a good team. A very, very good team.

Kareem's era we can all probably agree that he didn't play in, but he most certainly beat Magic and the Lakers for his first title, in fact considering Kareem didn't retire until '89 he did play in his era.

I consider the Magic, Bird, Kareem era 1980-1988. As I said, he played in that era, but he didn't win in that era.

When he beat the Lakers they were on the decline as a franchise without Kareem. Plus there's the whole HIV thing.

As for Hakeem...how the hell did he not play in the Hakeem era and magically managed to play in the Ewing and Malone era?

I only consider 94-95 the Hakeem era.

Really I consider the 90s when Jordan played Jordan's era with everyone else being a distant 2nd.

I included Ewing and Malone because they were the two high profile players I associate with losing to Jordan.

[hokupguy]

New Akron Billboard Makes Fun of LeBron

Not sure if been posted thought it was funny....

http://www.iamagm.com/news/2010/08/02/new.akron.billboard.makes.fun.lebron